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Off topic: Who can identify this language 19th century?
Thread poster: Vera Wilson

Vera Wilson  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 14:45
Member (2006)
English to German
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Sep 15, 2004

Hi??
The following text is an inscription on a sword originating from Chalkidiki, Greece: mamul re d''rnnes chatavil 1879 cav tri l re m th 1822.
there might be letters missing, but, who could identify or even decipher this???
thank you in advance
vera


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Csaba Ban  Identity Verified
Hungary
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any image? Sep 16, 2004

I have seen similar requests before on a language-related newsgroup. Usually such requests were accompanied by an URL that contained an image of the script to be deciphered.
If you could scan the script and post it somewhere, it would certainly help.


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Hacene  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
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English to French
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It seems to be French Sep 16, 2004

veram27fr wrote:

Hi??
The following text is an inscription on a sword originating from Chalkidiki, Greece: mamul re d''rnnes chatavil 1879 cav tri l re m th 1822.
there might be letters missing, but, who could identify or even decipher this???
thank you in advance
vera


Hi Vera,

I think your inscription should read:

manufacture d'armes. Chataville. 1879. Cavalerie légère. modèle 1822.

I hope that helps

Kind regards,

Hacène


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Adam Bartley  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 00:45
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Latin to English
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Nice work! Sep 16, 2004

Nice work, folks. Where other requests pop up in future, please try and be as specific as possible about the script - roman, cyrillic, greek or what have you - as this will usually help put people on the right track quickly.

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Vera Wilson  Identity Verified
France
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Member (2006)
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roman, off course. Sep 16, 2004

The inscription is roman, otherwise I would have indicated it specifically.
I have no picture of the sword, but as I have been told, the inscription is engraved on the blade.
Just now, I did a google research for 'chatavil' with no result, but got lucky with mamul.
It is turkish and means: manufactured, produced (langenscheidt turkish-german).

Any other idea to decipher the rest of the puzzle???
Thank you,
Vera


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Tim Drayton  Identity Verified
Cyprus
Local time: 15:45
Turkish to English
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Turkish was not written in the Latin script until 1928. Sep 16, 2004

You are right, 'mamul' does have this meaning in Turkish. However, please bear in mind that Turkish has only been written in the Latin script since the language was reformed under the Turkish Republic. In Ottoman times, Turkish was written using the Arabic script. Given the date I do not think that this inscription could be Turkish. None of the other words in the message resemble Turkish, either.

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Florence B  Identity Verified
France
Member (2002)
English to French
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Manufacture d'armes de Charleville Sep 16, 2004

Agree with Hacène for the rest.

http://www.lehussard-librairie.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3_47&products_id=141&osCsid=3be1d02b934511873e6d32ff0ee7a6d6

Florence
ps: afaik; this manufacture was closed in 1836 - the first number could be 1829

ps2: The word "Manufacture" is often abbreviated in "Manufre" ("re" in smaller characters) on engravings.

If the 1st word is actually in Turkish (?)(which is impossible for a sword coming from Charleville) there is still a possibility of forgery (like all those 19/20th violins marked "Violon 4/4 - Stradivarius").

[Edited at 2004-09-16 12:58]


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Nazim Aziz Gokdemir  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:45
English to Turkish
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Agree with Tim, except... Sep 16, 2004

Tim Drayton wrote:

You are right, 'mamul' does have this meaning in Turkish. However, please bear in mind that Turkish has only been written in the Latin script since the language was reformed under the Turkish Republic. In Ottoman times, Turkish was written using the Arabic script. Given the date I do not think that this inscription could be Turkish. None of the other words in the message resemble Turkish, either.


Except in some cases, you'll find Ottoman-era Turkish written using Roman script and adhering (somewhat!) to French pronunciation. This was done whenever there was an international context. An Ottoman passport might contain the wording, "Djemal Bey," for instance, for the benefit of a European border official who couldn't be expected to read Arabic script. Train stations had signs written in Roman script following French rules for the benefit of foreigners, as did shops, medicines, other products, and so on. This was long before 1928.

In all likelihood, the writing on the sword is French, though "mamul" does give me pause. Might be Turkish manufacturer using a mixture of Turkish and French. Good luck!

Aziz


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Edwal Rospigliosi  Identity Verified
Spain
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Fascinating Sep 16, 2004

I don't know about the subject, but I find fascinating (as Mr. Spock would say) the way you are helping to decipher a mistery. Congratulations!

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Vera Wilson  Identity Verified
France
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I totally agree Sep 16, 2004

with Edwal, and I really appreciate your help and interest. Very interesting to read all of your messages.
vera


Edwal Rospigliosi wrote:

I don't know about the subject, but I find fascinating (as Mr. Spock would say) the way you are helping to decipher a mistery. Congratulations!


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Adam Bartley  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 00:45
Member (2011)
Latin to English
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As reflected in Lebanon and Syria Sep 17, 2004

This is also reflected in the use of French as the first non-Middle Eastern language for official purposes in Syria and Lebanon after the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. (As a public servant I used to run into documentation from these countries which which was French/local language bilingual.) If it was a sword intended for a foreign market (or the maker just wanted to attract the attention of potential foreign purchasers who might see it?), this may have influenced the choice of script. Any experts, this is your chance.

Nazim Aziz Gokdemir wrote:

Except in some cases, you'll find Ottoman-era Turkish written using Roman script and adhering (somewhat!) to French pronunciation. This was done whenever there was an international context. An Ottoman passport might contain the wording, "Djemal Bey," for instance, for the benefit of a European border official who couldn't be expected to read Arabic script. Train stations had signs written in Roman script following French rules for the benefit of foreigners, as did shops, medicines, other products, and so on. This was long before 1928.

In all likelihood, the writing on the sword is French, though "mamul" does give me pause. Might be Turkish manufacturer using a mixture of Turkish and French. Good luck!

Aziz


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Parrot  Identity Verified
Spain
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Products from Charleville Sep 17, 2004

could have been sold to any buyer/country. It was one of the many European arms factories providing the US, the colonies and Asia. Bear in mind as well that the siderurgical industry at that time was practically in the hands of those few powers, among which Germany and France were leaders.

It has always stuck me how a great number of old weapons (read, post 1500) in a lot of Asian museums are European. In fact, the locally-produced arms tend to date from before this traffic. In this particular setting (Asia), few of the buyers were "nations" in the sense that we understand today, such that ownership was always attributed to some Maharajah, Pasha or Bey, some of whom maintained private armies.

Just a comment on "context".


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Jean-Luc Dumont  Identity Verified
France
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English to French
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Manufacture de Chatellerault Sep 24, 2004

mamul re d''rnnes chatavil 1879 cav tri l re m th 1822

The dates are correct: it was made in 1879 based on the 1822 model, see below.

Manufacture d'armes de Chatellerault (Chat.), (avil) avril 1879
cavalerie légère modèle 1822

Manufactory of Châtellerault, April 1879 , Light Cavalry model 1822)

1848 - 1852
After the abdication of the King Louis-Philippe, the word "Royale" dissapeared and was replaced by "Nationale"  (abbreviation: Nle ) or “Armes”.
Manuf Nl  e de  Châtellerault   avril   1850
But also by
M  re d' Armes  de  Châtellerault  avril   1851

In 1856 a new regulation required that the model of the sword should be mentioned.
[]


M  re Imp  ale de Chat  t  x  bre  1862  Cav  rie  l   re  M  le  1822
Abbreviation for:
Manufacture Impériale de Châtellerault, décembre 1862, Cavalerie légère modèle 1822
(Imperor’s Manufactory of Châtellerault, December 1862, Light Cavalry model 1822)

http://users.skynet.be/euro-swords/chatellerault.htm

[Edited at 2004-09-25 05:14]


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Vera Wilson  Identity Verified
France
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Chatellerault Sep 28, 2004

JLDSF: I sent your link on, and the owner could indentify his sword. Great. Thank you all for your answers.
Vera


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