Off topic: Who can identify this language 19th century?
Vera Wilson France Local time: 13:24 Member (2006) English to German + ...
Sep 15, 2004
Hi??
The following text is an inscription on a sword originating from Chalkidiki, Greece: mamul re d''rnnes chatavil 1879 cav tri l re m th 1822.
there might be letters missing, but, who could identify or even decipher this???
thank you in advance
vera
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Csaba Ban Hungary Local time: 13:24 Member (2002) English to Hungarian + ...
any image?
Sep 16, 2004
I have seen similar requests before on a language-related newsgroup. Usually such requests were accompanied by an URL that contained an image of the script to be deciphered.
If you could scan the script and post it somewhere, it would certainly help.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Hacene United Kingdom Local time: 12:24 Member (2005) English to French + ...
It seems to be French
Sep 16, 2004
veram27fr wrote:
Hi??
The following text is an inscription on a sword originating from Chalkidiki, Greece: mamul re d''rnnes chatavil 1879 cav tri l re m th 1822.
there might be letters missing, but, who could identify or even decipher this???
thank you in advance
vera
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Adam Bartley United Kingdom Latin to English + ...
Nice work!
Sep 16, 2004
Nice work, folks. Where other requests pop up in future, please try and be as specific as possible about the script - roman, cyrillic, greek or what have you - as this will usually help put people on the right track quickly.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Vera Wilson France Local time: 13:24 Member (2006) English to German + ...
TOPIC STARTER
roman, off course.
Sep 16, 2004
The inscription is roman, otherwise I would have indicated it specifically.
I have no picture of the sword, but as I have been told, the inscription is engraved on the blade.
Just now, I did a google research for 'chatavil' with no result, but got lucky with mamul.
It is turkish and means: manufactured, produced (langenscheidt turkish-german).
Any other idea to decipher the rest of the puzzle???
Thank you,
Vera
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Tim Drayton Cyprus Local time: 14:24 Turkish to English
Turkish was not written in the Latin script until 1928.
Sep 16, 2004
You are right, 'mamul' does have this meaning in Turkish. However, please bear in mind that Turkish has only been written in the Latin script since the language was reformed under the Turkish Republic. In Ottoman times, Turkish was written using the Arabic script. Given the date I do not think that this inscription could be Turkish. None of the other words in the message resemble Turkish, either.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Florence B France Member (2002) English to French + ...
Florence
ps: afaik; this manufacture was closed in 1836 - the first number could be 1829
ps2: The word "Manufacture" is often abbreviated in "Manufre" ("re" in smaller characters) on engravings.
If the 1st word is actually in Turkish (?)(which is impossible for a sword coming from Charleville) there is still a possibility of forgery (like all those 19/20th violins marked "Violon 4/4 - Stradivarius").
[Edited at 2004-09-16 12:58]
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Nazim Aziz Gokdemir United States Local time: 07:24 English to Turkish + ...
Agree with Tim, except...
Sep 16, 2004
Tim Drayton wrote:
You are right, 'mamul' does have this meaning in Turkish. However, please bear in mind that Turkish has only been written in the Latin script since the language was reformed under the Turkish Republic. In Ottoman times, Turkish was written using the Arabic script. Given the date I do not think that this inscription could be Turkish. None of the other words in the message resemble Turkish, either.
Except in some cases, you'll find Ottoman-era Turkish written using Roman script and adhering (somewhat!) to French pronunciation. This was done whenever there was an international context. An Ottoman passport might contain the wording, "Djemal Bey," for instance, for the benefit of a European border official who couldn't be expected to read Arabic script. Train stations had signs written in Roman script following French rules for the benefit of foreigners, as did shops, medicines, other products, and so on. This was long before 1928.
In all likelihood, the writing on the sword is French, though "mamul" does give me pause. Might be Turkish manufacturer using a mixture of Turkish and French. Good luck!
Aziz
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Edwal Rospigliosi Spain Local time: 13:24 Member (2004) English to Spanish + ...
Fascinating
Sep 16, 2004
I don't know about the subject, but I find fascinating (as Mr. Spock would say) the way you are helping to decipher a mistery. Congratulations!
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Vera Wilson France Local time: 13:24 Member (2006) English to German + ...
TOPIC STARTER
I totally agree
Sep 16, 2004
with Edwal, and I really appreciate your help and interest. Very interesting to read all of your messages.
vera
Edwal Rospigliosi wrote:
I don't know about the subject, but I find fascinating (as Mr. Spock would say) the way you are helping to decipher a mistery. Congratulations!
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Adam Bartley United Kingdom Latin to English + ...
As reflected in Lebanon and Syria
Sep 17, 2004
This is also reflected in the use of French as the first non-Middle Eastern language for official purposes in Syria and Lebanon after the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. (As a public servant I used to run into documentation from these countries which which was French/local language bilingual.) If it was a sword intended for a foreign market (or the maker just wanted to attract the attention of potential foreign purchasers who might see it?), this may have influenced the choice of script. Any experts, this is your chance.
Nazim Aziz Gokdemir wrote:
Except in some cases, you'll find Ottoman-era Turkish written using Roman script and adhering (somewhat!) to French pronunciation. This was done whenever there was an international context. An Ottoman passport might contain the wording, "Djemal Bey," for instance, for the benefit of a European border official who couldn't be expected to read Arabic script. Train stations had signs written in Roman script following French rules for the benefit of foreigners, as did shops, medicines, other products, and so on. This was long before 1928.
In all likelihood, the writing on the sword is French, though "mamul" does give me pause. Might be Turkish manufacturer using a mixture of Turkish and French. Good luck!
Aziz
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Parrot Spain Local time: 13:24 Member (2002) Spanish to English + ...
MODERATOR
Products from Charleville
Sep 17, 2004
could have been sold to any buyer/country. It was one of the many European arms factories providing the US, the colonies and Asia. Bear in mind as well that the siderurgical industry at that time was practically in the hands of those few powers, among which Germany and France were leaders.
It has always stuck me how a great number of old weapons (read, post 1500) in a lot of Asian museums are European. In fact, the locally-produced arms tend to date from before this traffic. In this particular setting (Asia), few of the buyers were "nations" in the sense that we understand today, such that ownership was always attributed to some Maharajah, Pasha or Bey, some of whom maintained private armies.
Just a comment on "context".
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Jean-Luc Dumont France Local time: 13:24 English to French + ...
Manufacture de Chatellerault
Sep 24, 2004
mamul re d''rnnes chatavil 1879 cav tri l re m th 1822
The dates are correct: it was made in 1879 based on the 1822 model, see below.
Manufacture d'armes de Chatellerault (Chat.), (avil) avril 1879
cavalerie légère modèle 1822
Manufactory of Châtellerault, April 1879 , Light Cavalry model 1822)
1848 - 1852
After the abdication of the King Louis-Philippe, the word "Royale" dissapeared and was replaced by "Nationale" (abbreviation: Nle ) or “Armes”.
Manuf Nl e de Châtellerault avril 1850
But also by
M re d' Armes de Châtellerault avril 1851
In 1856 a new regulation required that the model of the sword should be mentioned.
[]
M re Imp ale de Chat t x bre 1862 Cav rie l re M le 1822
Abbreviation for:
Manufacture Impériale de Châtellerault, décembre 1862, Cavalerie légère modèle 1822
(Imperor’s Manufactory of Châtellerault, December 1862, Light Cavalry model 1822)
A fully featured online CAT tool and TMS, with no installation required, and a simple, intuitive interface. Maximize linguistic assets by sharing in real time as you collaborate with colleagues. Make use of next generation, cloud-based translation technol
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
The translation workplace 
