| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | E-mail removed from all \"Close bidding\" pages, WHY???! Thread poster: bochkor
|
|---|
Magda Dziadosz 
Poland
Local time: 03:14
Member (2004)
English to Polish
+ ...
| it so simple, I can't believe why it is not working this way! | Mar 1, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-03-01 18:10, anotherlanguage wrote:
...
My suggestion is this:
Firstly, do list the country where the poster is located. I believe that this is essential.
Secondly, if ProZ receives xxx complaints about an agency/poster from \"winning\" bidders, ProZ can, based on the nature of the complaints, ban that poster from posting any additional jobs in the future. If payment is at issue, said po
... See more Quote:
On 2002-03-01 18:10, anotherlanguage wrote:
...
My suggestion is this:
Firstly, do list the country where the poster is located. I believe that this is essential.
Secondly, if ProZ receives xxx complaints about an agency/poster from \"winning\" bidders, ProZ can, based on the nature of the complaints, ban that poster from posting any additional jobs in the future. If payment is at issue, said poster may be reinstated after proof of payment is received.
Thirdly, 60-90 days after winning a bid, translators are sent an e-mail asking them to make a comment in the \"Agency Ratings\" section regarding their experience ala Ebay\'s feedback forum.
AND/OR
Only paying ProZ members can have access to the poster\'s complete information: \"Name, Address, Phone, Website, etc.\" since they are not paying the $1 anyway and this would be an additional incentive to become a paying member.
I agree whleheartedly with what you have just proposed. It seems so simple and obvious that I start to wonder what might be the reasons not to do just this. Especially E-bay modelled feedback system would certainly help a lot. So far in most cases we bid in darkness to unknown comapnies and so many of them actually uses ProZ just to find cheap labour. That was my considerations of to become Platinum or not. My conclusion was that the advantage of \"being more visible\" to those who look for the cheapest prices is not worth it. Being a member for two years, I still wait for my first ProZ job! However, if there is more jobs in my language pair ( average is one per week) posted by known and reputable posters and Platinum membership gives me full information on them, including positive feedback from fellow translators, I would go for it without hesitation. By now I spend BrowiZ earned months ago and wonder why this thing cannot be changed even if so many tranlators request it! 
Magda
PS My posts typically appear many hours after I submitt them. Does it works faster for Platinums? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Outsourcers' rights | Mar 1, 2002 |
I don\'t quite see why outsourcers are so afraid of us. We freelancers have to face the big cruel world on our lonesome and we are particularly vulnerable to bum clients and bouncing checks, as you certainly know. Hence, I believe, all this outcry. I believe that everything you can do to attract more translators and better clients to the site will be the best for everybody, and certainly, among the things that will make people come here and stay here would be to feel more (and no less) protected... See more I don\'t quite see why outsourcers are so afraid of us. We freelancers have to face the big cruel world on our lonesome and we are particularly vulnerable to bum clients and bouncing checks, as you certainly know. Hence, I believe, all this outcry. I believe that everything you can do to attract more translators and better clients to the site will be the best for everybody, and certainly, among the things that will make people come here and stay here would be to feel more (and no less) protected.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-03-01 21:02 ]
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-03-01 21:10 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 21:14
German to English
+ ...
Outsourcers have a right to privacy, but we don\'t?
In addition, the e-mail system of ProZ has been used repeatedly for sending \"anonymous\" messages to various members. It has been changed? I don\'t see any difference. Maybe [email protected] cannot be entered anymore, but other phoney addresses can still be used when sending e-mails to members.
Personally, I find it all too coincidental: first, the owner o... See more Outsourcers have a right to privacy, but we don\'t?
In addition, the e-mail system of ProZ has been used repeatedly for sending \"anonymous\" messages to various members. It has been changed? I don\'t see any difference. Maybe [email protected] cannot be entered anymore, but other phoney addresses can still be used when sending e-mails to members.
Personally, I find it all too coincidental: first, the owner of the site allows a whole bunch of abusive messages to go through and then, several people receive hate mails from [email protected]. Go figure!
Under every LEGAL bidding system, the information of the outsourcer is fully available to all bidders. It is the bidders who need to be protected from cut-throat and fly-by-night \"agencies\", not the other way around. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X)
French to English
+ ...
| Outsourcing transparency does not equal a real email address | Mar 1, 2002 |
I agree with Werner re the transparency of outsourcers and who requires \"protection\". However, one can \"hide\" an e-mail and not HIDE THE IDENTITY OF THE OUTSOURCER. Give them an email for purposes of receiving bids, but let us know who they are. Maybe, I don\'t want to bid on a translation of X, Y or Z company. At least knowing the company name will allow me to make that decision rationally. On Monster, you can hide your resume from certain companies - this feature protects the consumer i.e.... See more I agree with Werner re the transparency of outsourcers and who requires \"protection\". However, one can \"hide\" an e-mail and not HIDE THE IDENTITY OF THE OUTSOURCER. Give them an email for purposes of receiving bids, but let us know who they are. Maybe, I don\'t want to bid on a translation of X, Y or Z company. At least knowing the company name will allow me to make that decision rationally. On Monster, you can hide your resume from certain companies - this feature protects the consumer i.e., job seeker. Why shouldn\'t proz do the same? I don\'t care about a real e-mail address, I just want to know to whom I am making my bid. That\'s transparency. ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
bochkor
Local time: 21:14
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I beg to disagree | Mar 1, 2002 |
Re: Jeff\'s comments
\"Also, if you are an agency posting a job, do you suddenly want all these people contacting you from outside this site?\"
Well, if you\'re a decent agency with nothing to hide, YES!!! Why not?
__________________________
\"My suggestion is this:
...
AND/OR
Only paying ProZ members can have access to the poster\'s complete information: \"Name, Address, Phone, Website, etc.\... See more Re: Jeff\'s comments
\"Also, if you are an agency posting a job, do you suddenly want all these people contacting you from outside this site?\"
Well, if you\'re a decent agency with nothing to hide, YES!!! Why not?
__________________________
\"My suggestion is this:
...
AND/OR
Only paying ProZ members can have access to the poster\'s complete information: \"Name, Address, Phone, Website, etc.\" since they are not paying the $1 anyway and this would be an additional incentive to become a paying member.\"
Absolutely, but that\'s what I said all along. So why the first part of your message then?
________________________
Re: Henry\'s comments
I can\'t determine, whether the \"godfather/good father\" messages come from you or not for sure, but according to that e-mail\'s header info it sure looks like it. Instead of from [email protected], in reality it has been sent off from [email protected] (according to the Return-Path), which is your e-mail address or isn\'t? How can someone else have access to [email protected], if you don\'t let him? Do you know that person? If it has really been done through the \"e-mail option in the profile pages\", as you say, I wonder how... So here\'s the header info as follows:
Return-Path: [email protected]
Delivered-To: [email protected]
Received: from asa.proz.com (proz.com [216.218.254.146])
by server12.safepages.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED74136232
for [email protected]; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:16:21 +0000 (GMT)
Received: from proz by asa.proz.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian))
id 16gnpY-0001HP-00
for [email protected]; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:16:16 +0000
To: [email protected]
Subject: [ProZ mail] listen
From: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
X-Mailer: PHP/4.0.6
Message-Id: [email protected]
Sender: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:16:16 +0000
___________________________
\"Returning to the issue of the email addresses, we have a privacy policy that protects the private information of service providers and outsourcers alike. Liuke freelancers, outsourcers have the right to make their email addresses public--and many do. But they also have the right to not make them public.\"
vs.
\"As for the general issue of transparency in the jobs system, I am in full agreement with the general sentiment that more transparency would be better.\"
Don\'t you see a contradiction there (between the 2 statements)? Your \"full agreement\" is half-hearted at best, if you make outsourcers\' e-mail privacy a priority over our payment security. That\'s the bottomline!
_________________________
I don\'t see, either, where the big time savings would be for an outsourcer, whether he is reading our bids in e-mails or on your \"automated control page\". He still has to read them once any place, so whether here or there, doesn\'t matter!
__________________________
\"(though compared to other marketplace sites on the Internet, I think we compare well in terms of providing direct access to real names, profile pages, etc.)\"
Not so sure! Disclosing one\'s e-mail address up front is a common basic requirement at most (decent) websites. Many scripts use the e-mail address for verification and send you your password there, if you forgot it, for example. No better example, than Network Solutions (www.netsol.com) or do you want to say they\'re not providing enough privacy, because they require an e-mail address??? But there are tons of exanmples of other websites, where you\'re greeted with a request for your e-mail address and you know that!
_____________________________
\"So again, the main reason for us to charge the $1 bids is to filter out non-serious bids.\"
So again, you\'re focusing on the wrong thing. You\'re so concerned about filtering out non-serious bids, which serves your NON-PAYING outsourcers\' interests, but we don\'t see any proof that you\'re concerned with our PAYMENT SECURITY at all. As I said before, your \"full agreement\" is just words, if you don\'t back it up by VERIFIABLE CONTACT INFORMATION on every single job posting! Okay, make it visible for us paying members only, but do it! Instead, you went ahead and asking nobody, you just removed our last bit of security, when you removed those e-mail addresses. You can\'t do it without putting something in its place (like the visibility only for paying members), because now I see the jobs rolling in and I\'m afraid to bid, because I don\'t know, who the heck they are and I\'d have to believe, whatever they\'re telling me.
So make US TRANSLATORS, your only paying members finally a priority and begin to see that we are paying, yes, but we\'d like to pay for seeing serious outsourcers only! That\'s what we want to pay for! So weeding out, sure, but start with the non-serious posters instead of the non-serious bidders! After all, look who\'s paying you, the posters? No, the translators! And it makes no business sense to sweet-talk to non-serious posters just to get them in, because we don\'t need them anyway!
Right, folks?
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-03-02 01:18 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 21:14
German to English
+ ...
| Bravo, László | Mar 1, 2002 |
Well said (all of it)!
The whole e-mail affair is fishy, and so are the repeated personal attacks condoned by the site owner as well as the anything-but-transparent job system.
I guess someone from the outside should have a closer look ...
| | | | | don't be rude - there is no reason for it | Mar 2, 2002 |
Dear Lazlo,
There is no need to behave like a school kid - shouting with exclamation signs all over the page. You could ask Henry directly - his email address IS well-known and open to everybody. Why this theatrical explosion of passion? Come on, cool down.
Thank you for your concern about my native country, Ukraine.
| | | | bochkor
Local time: 21:14
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Exclamation marks are not yelling! | Mar 2, 2002 |
They just mean that something is stressed or sometimes imperative (like an order). I didn\'t mean to yell, but even if I did, wouldn\'t you understand how upset we can be? About Ukraine, I really sympathize.
On the other hand, what is your opinion on the whole issue? Would you like to see more security for translators or for posters?
| | |
|
|
|
Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 21:14
German to English
+ ...
| A couple of suggestions for Henry | Mar 2, 2002 |
Given everything I have read here today and before, there is no doubt in my mind that several things need to be improved ASAP.
Job Postings
Henry said that outsourcers’ privacy needed to be protected. That’s fine, as long as freelancers are equally protected: we need to know who the outsourcer is, where they are located, how to get in touch with them, etc. Seeing all those cheap offers of 2-4 cents on a daily (!) basis, it is quite clear to me... See more Given everything I have read here today and before, there is no doubt in my mind that several things need to be improved ASAP.
Job Postings
Henry said that outsourcers’ privacy needed to be protected. That’s fine, as long as freelancers are equally protected: we need to know who the outsourcer is, where they are located, how to get in touch with them, etc. Seeing all those cheap offers of 2-4 cents on a daily (!) basis, it is quite clear to me that members (non-paying and paying) will have trepidations about placing a bid.
Unfortunately, there are too many bad apples out there, and way too many ProZ members get burnt regularly (some of the regular job posters are well-known “payment offenders”).
What Henry seems to forget is that his paying clientele is all of us, not the outsourcers. Until the job posters come and sit in the same boat with us (i.e., pay for posting jobs), there will be no even balance. Right now, the outsourcers are coddled, while the freelancers end up with the short end of the stick.
Sure, some improvements have been made (job history, no more open bids), but a whole lot more needs to be done to ensure the well-being of freelancers all over the world.
Member Profiles
Empty profiles must be chucked out: give every new member about a week to prepare a complete profile; otherwise, delete them. Also, members should be required to identify themselves (same goes for job posters).
The “e-mail contact feature” must also be modified. Too often now, certain elements in this community have taken advantage of this feature and abused it (sending out hate mails to other members using other people’s e-mail addresses). ProZ must find a way to block such abuse.
KudoZ
ProZ must set firm rules on what constitutes KudoZ abuse (e.g., 20 questions in a row by the same person for the same job).
Also, what about fairness to new members? Members that have been with ProZ since its inception and have, say, 6,000 KudoZ points will always be ahead of “junior members”. The latter basically have no chance of ever catching up with the KudoZ leaders, who have been around for years. Here’s my – bold – suggestion: why not delete all KudoZ points every year to give everyone a fair chance? The glossary would still be around (and previous answers could still be viewed – so the “old warhorses” would not really lose their credits  ).
Site rules & etiquette
Rules need to be enforced in order to be effective. Right now, it is quite clear that even severe violations of the site rules are not punished. Not too long ago, one member assailed several other members in the KudoZ section with such “lovely” language as “F… you” and so on. It was not until the 4th or 5th incident of this sort that this member was finally removed.
The same is true of the forum: Henry vets new incoming messages from non-paying members before posting them in order to filter out any messages that might violate the rules. Why, then, did he allow 3-4 heinous and hateful messages to go “live” the other day? Not only were they filled with insults and personal attacks, but they also had nothing to do with the respective topic. Even a blind person would have been able to see what was going on there and would have discarded these messages immediately. If the site owner does not comply with his own rules, why should the members of the site?
In short, the site needs clear rules (as for netiquette, etc., they are quite clear, but they need to be enforced).
Customer Service & Support Requests
Launching and maintaining a site like ProZ is no small undertaking, and Henry needs to be applauded for shouldering such a burden. But if you get yourself into such a project, you must be willing to work for it. Don’t get me wrong: I know that Henry works hard, but, again, more needs to be done – and the tone must be changed.
Support requests repeatedly go unanswered, and it does not seem to matter whether you are a paying member or not. Recently, Henry even threatened a couple of members and warned them against “generating customer service” for him. Basically, the message was: send another support request, and you’re out. If every company handled its customer service like that, there would be no more companies left in the world.
It does not take much to solve the problem: ProZ has a large group of moderators and other volunteers. They could all take turns (e.g., certain days, on a weekly basis, etc.) answering support requests, and it would not cost ProZ anything.
Having over 30,000 members and only 1-2 people manning the customer-service desk is insane.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-03-02 05:11 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 21:14
German to English
+ ...
| Yelling would be CAPITAL letters | Mar 2, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-03-02 03:44, bochkor wrote:
They just mean that something is stressed or sometimes imperative (like an order). I didn\'t mean to yell, but even if I did, wouldn\'t you understand how upset we can be? About Ukraine, I really sympathize.
On the other hand, what is your opinion on the whole issue? Would you like to see more security for translators or for posters?
... See more Quote:
On 2002-03-02 03:44, bochkor wrote:
They just mean that something is stressed or sometimes imperative (like an order). I didn\'t mean to yell, but even if I did, wouldn\'t you understand how upset we can be? About Ukraine, I really sympathize.
On the other hand, what is your opinion on the whole issue? Would you like to see more security for translators or for posters?
Your postings were fine; it was clear that you used exclamation marks for emphasis. If you had wanted to yell or shout, you would have used capital letters, RIGHT? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Klaus Herrmann
Germany
Local time: 03:14
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
| Bidding - not for me, as long as I don't know the outsourcer. | Mar 2, 2002 |
I do not participate in bidding because I\'m not prepared to send a quotation or my CV to some anonymous entity. It\'s as easy as this. In the offline world, would any of us respond to an RFQ if the available contact information was limited to a mailbox, not even a company name? I seriously doubt it.
At the same time, while I am considering to become a paying member, my being a paying member still does not disclose any additional information on the outsourcer. Hence, this ha... See more I do not participate in bidding because I\'m not prepared to send a quotation or my CV to some anonymous entity. It\'s as easy as this. In the offline world, would any of us respond to an RFQ if the available contact information was limited to a mailbox, not even a company name? I seriously doubt it.
At the same time, while I am considering to become a paying member, my being a paying member still does not disclose any additional information on the outsourcer. Hence, this hardly is convincing me to sign up. (I\'m considering to sign up anyway, but that\'s a different thread, I suppose. Suffice it to say that inspite of some obvious flaws, Henry does a really great job providing this forum for us - thank you, Henry).
I do appreciate privacy being protected, but let\'s put this into perspective. If details on the outsourcer are available to a closed community only, I don\'t see privacy being compromised. In the \"real world\", we all disclose some private information if we request a quotation, so why should this be any different here? If I request a quotation to have my driveway fixed, would I withhold my address from the company I\'m asking for a quotation? Unlikely. If I did, would I expect to receive any quotation. Certainly not.
The other reason for not putting in any bids is the fact that all offers I\'ve seen so far* come from agencies, with predominantly ridiculous ideas about what a fair price is.
(* I\'ve joined this forum about 5 weeks ago). But I am disgressing.
▲ Collapse
| | | | bochkor
Local time: 21:14
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I'll continue in a new thread | Mar 2, 2002 |
I\'ll continue in a new thread on the front page, because this has gotten already too long and so off the front page, where it should remained, as long as our pleas get ignored.
Otherwise, I agree with all you wrote, but there are several other topics you touched on. I intended to keep this discussion focused, though, on one issue we want to achieve: proper identification of posters.
Regarding yelling on the web, I even consider capital letters as stress... See more I\'ll continue in a new thread on the front page, because this has gotten already too long and so off the front page, where it should remained, as long as our pleas get ignored.
Otherwise, I agree with all you wrote, but there are several other topics you touched on. I intended to keep this discussion focused, though, on one issue we want to achieve: proper identification of posters.
Regarding yelling on the web, I even consider capital letters as stressing a certain word only. There are some net icons or whatever they\'re called that have some abbreviations for yelling and other things, but I\'m not familiar with them, so my writings should be read like normal hand-written or typed letters. Another way to stress something would be to make a word bold, but I can\'t do it on this web form.
So let\'s continue on the front page! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2] | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » E-mail removed from all \"Close bidding\" pages, WHY???! | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
| | Wordfast Pro | Translation Memory Software for Any Platform
Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users!
Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value
Buy now! » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
