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E-mail removed from all \"Close bidding\" pages, WHY???!
Thread poster: bochkor
bochkor
Local time: 19:51
English to German
+ ...
Mar 1, 2002

Until now the \"Close bidding\" pages of a posted job were the only ones that provided an e-mail identification of the job posters. As I see now, it has been removed. Therefore I strongly urge Henry and Jason to REINSTATE it and all translators to ask them to do the same!



This is outrageous, because for a long time our requests for identification have been ignored, but at least we could get an e-mail address this way. Now really all the bogus posters are invited this way and we\'ll never know for sure



- which country they\'re in

- whether they have a website (or just a free web e-mail address)

- what their real (not what they\'re telling us) address, phone number, full name is (if they have a website, you can search netsol.com\'s WHOIS database)



Basically, we won\'t have any clue any more, who they are and IF they will ever pay for the work done, so we\'re totally vulnerable! This can\'t go on! Henry and Jason need to listen! After all, most of us are paying members!



And I also know exactly why it has been removed: so people from poorer countries (for whom even $1 is a lot > in the Ukraine, for example, $20 is a monthly salary!!!) won\'t have a chance to circumvent the $1 bidding price, so if they didn\'t have the chance to accumulate 100 brownies per the bids they\'d like to make, then they simply shouldn\'t stand a chance, because ProZ wants to make sure that NOOOBODY slips away and EEEVERYBODY pays! So because of that $1 that ProZ desperately wants to have control over, our last source of security should be gone??? Is that fair?



As far as I\'m concerned, I don\'t care how they do it, but I\'m sure they know, how to do it, because paying members already have parts of a page on the site that only they see, so let\'s get the E-MAIL IDENTIFICATION BACK and if this is not a website \"by translators for translators\" any more (remember their old slogan?), then at least show the posters\' e-mail addresses to us paying members! At least! And once and for all, let\'s solve this identification problem at last and do require certain data from every poster routinely! It\'s about time, we\'ve all been crying for it! We\'re not paying for being ignored, so let\'s get some changes rolling!



Opinions invited. Thanks for listening!


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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 19:51
German to English
+ ...
I second the motion 100% Mar 1, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-03-01 13:37, bochkor wrote:

Until now the \"Close bidding\" pages of a posted job were the only ones that provided an e-mail identification of the job posters. As I see now, it has been removed. Therefore I strongly urge Henry and Jason to REINSTATE it and all translators to ask them to do the same!



This is outrageous, because for a long time our requests for identification have been ignored, but at least we could get an e-mail address this way. Now really all the bogus posters are invited this way and we\'ll never know for sure



- which country they\'re in

- whether they have a website (or just a free web e-mail address)

- what their real (not what they\'re telling us) address, phone number, full name is (if they have a website, you can search netsol.com\'s WHOIS database)



Basically, we won\'t have any clue any more, who they are and IF they will ever pay for the work done, so we\'re totally vulnerable! This can\'t go on! Henry and Jason need to listen! After all, most of us are paying members!



And I also know exactly why it has been removed: so people from poorer countries (for whom even $1 is a lot > in the Ukraine, for example, $20 is a monthly salary!!!) won\'t have a chance to circumvent the $1 bidding price, so if they didn\'t have the chance to accumulate 100 brownies per the bids they\'d like to make, then they simply shouldn\'t stand a chance, because ProZ wants to make sure that NOOOBODY slips away and EEEVERYBODY pays! So because of that $1 that ProZ desperately wants to have control over, our last source of security should be gone??? Is that fair?



As far as I\'m concerned, I don\'t care how they do it, but I\'m sure they know, how to do it, because paying members already have parts of a page on the site that only they see, so let\'s get the E-MAIL IDENTIFICATION BACK and if this is not a website \"by translators for translators\" any more (remember their old slogan?), then at least show the posters\' e-mail addresses to us paying members! At least! And once and for all, let\'s solve this identification problem at last and do require certain data from every poster routinely! It\'s about time, we\'ve all been crying for it! We\'re not paying for being ignored, so let\'s get some changes rolling!



Opinions invited. Thanks for listening!





Fully agree with you: ProZ has \"finally\" removed the last bit of security we have had so far. From now on, it will be impossible to verify the poster\'s identity (and I don\'t trust ProZ\'s ability to do so, because they have failed miserably on that front so far: there is one agency, in particular, that everyone knows about, but ProZ still allows them post their job ads, thus assisting them in targeting new victims).



A black day in ProZ history

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Sandra Baptista  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 00:51
Partial member (2005)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
AGREE!!! Mar 1, 2002

Hello



You are 1.000.000% right!!!



No more comments…



Sandra



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Jane Lamb-Ruiz  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
Agreement with notion of transparent job posting/er Mar 1, 2002

How does the real world do business? Transparently, it is hoped. Let\'s not start introducing aleartory \"off-balance sheet transactions\" (sic!)into the mix. Do you really want to enronize bidding processes? Who ever heard of a bidding process where the bidder does not know who put out the RFP? It\'s the other way around!! The RFP entity takes out adverts in publications or other venues and the BIDDERS ARE NOT TRANSPARENT. So why aren\'t we following suit here?



I agree 100% with Lázló and Werner.
[addsig]


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Egmont
Spain
Local time: 01:51
Afrikaans to Spanish
+ ...
I agree also 100% with Lázló and Werner. Mar 1, 2002

OK
[addsig]


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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 19:51
German to English
+ ...
Hit a nerve? Mar 1, 2002

Well, this thread has not been out there too long, but the \"anonymous\" hate mails (one disguised as coming from info@proz.com) are already being sent out.



FYI: I can only speak for myself, but I never abused the e-mail feature. I only looked at it to verify the poster\'s identity. If I wanted to bid, I did so through this site. But the sad fact is that the jobs we have been seeing recently are not even worth a single BrowniZ.


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Anneken
Local time: 01:51
French to Dutch
+ ...
I agree Mar 1, 2002

Nothing to add, László and Werner have a good point. Proz has gained a far to important position in the translator community to ignore this. Freelance translators need transparency, how else can you expect us to place bids (and pay for it on top!!!)... This is a poor policy, we should raise our voices to be heard. Let\'s hope Henry is willing to listen...

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Umit Altug  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:51
English to Turkish
+ ...
Fully Agree Mar 1, 2002

No extra comment needed. This is so clear. Job posters know everything about us, but they are not transparent. Until now, we could at least know whether the poster had a decent e-mail address. I fully support this request.

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-03-01 15:21 ]

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-03-03 13:39 ]


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bochkor
Local time: 19:51
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Quoting the hate mail I've just received Mar 1, 2002

-----------

You have been sent a message via your ProZ.com page.

Author: good father

-----------



We have removed the close bid option because up to now you were getting the e- mail and quoting separately and Proz was getting nothing. You want to be clever and earn money at the cost of Proz.com/?

Regards,

Good father



-----------

Keep your profile up to date:

http://www.proz.com/translator/14194

To login and edit your profile, go to:

http://www.proz.com/translator/

-----------



The above e-mail came from info@proz.com and my first question is: why are you hiding and did you want to hide this e-mail message from the public? What kind of joke is \"Good father\"?! We all know you, Henry or Jason, so name yourself!!! Step up to the plate and don\'t play a coward!!!



Secondly, why are you incapacitated to read carefully what I actually wrote? As I had said, I was not making money at the cost of ProZ: I\'m a Platinum Member and I want to pay your salary and beer, but I also want you to do something for it! Maybe we have a case of attention deficit disorder (ADD) here...



And if I could just briefly grab your attention for 1 more second (\'cause I know, it won\'t last long), I wrote that I\'m okay with at least showing the posters\' e-mail addresses selectively, only to us paying members. So what problem do you have to do that, AFTER we\'ve already paid?! Do I have to tell you how to do that?! After somebody pays the $1 or is on file as a yearly paying member, send out a cookie file or whatever better technology you might have! You\'re able to do that already in parts of ProZ.com, so why not for this feature? Just think!!!



And this way all those \"dangerously\" poor translators in poor parts of the world (like Ukraine) wouldn\'t be getting a free $1 ride at the \"huge\" and ridiculous \"cost\" of ProZ. They wouldn\'t be seeing those e-mail and other IDs, only if they paid your pathetic $1 to make you happy.



I personally wouldn\'t even mind to pay $20 more a year, just to give those guys in the poor parts of the world (where $20 is a montly salary!) a fair chance to get at least a few jobs by reinstating last year\'s free bidding system and keeping membership voluntary! Anybody to join me?



And Mr. Enron, real businessmen make their money on big-ticket items, not playing a 99-cent store on the Internet, so give those little guys a break anyway with this shameful $1 penny pinching!



Also, if you ever thought that your role runnning ProZ was ungrateful, that\'s because the way you treat us and how rude you sometimes are (I could quote another e-mail by you, if I wanted to). If you didn\'t ignore us, were polite and humble, and actually did something for us, we would be the happiest smiling bunch in your lap. Did it ever occur to you? Just change your attitude and we\'ll also flip a switch!



Thanks for reading this far! Comments still welcome.


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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 19:51
German to English
+ ...
Reply to László Mar 1, 2002

That\'s the exact same e-mail I got (from info@proz.com).

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Silvina Beatriz Codina  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 20:51
Member (2002)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Really... Mar 1, 2002

The ProZ guys must be idiots to send anonymous hate mail using their own email address...

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Clarisa Moraña  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 20:51
Member (2002)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Not Henry, ?m sure! Mar 1, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-03-01 15:42, bochkor wrote:

-----------

You have been sent a message via your ProZ.com page.

Author: good father

-----------



We have removed the close bid option because up to now you were getting the e- mail and quoting separately and Proz was getting nothing. You want to be clever and earn money at the cost of Proz.com/?

Regards,

Good father



-----------

Keep your profile up to date:

http://www.proz.com/translator/14194

To login and edit your profile, go to:

http://www.proz.com/translator/

-----------



The above e-mail came from info@proz.com and my first question is: why are you hiding and did you want to hide this e-mail message from the public? What kind of joke is \"Good father\"?! We all know you, Henry or Jason, so name yourself!!! Step up to the plate and don\'t play a coward!!!







No, not Jason nor Henry are are sending those mails. It\'s someone else using that e-mail address.





Anyway, Henry: it\'s very important for us to verify the identity of the one that is posting a job. Please, return us that feature.



Regards,



Clarisa



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Hans Gärtner  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:51
German to Spanish
+ ...
Agree with you Mar 1, 2002

Untransparent job posting degrades the quality of the whole system and is hardly consistent with a \"site by translators and for translators\". To me it looks more like a \"site for unserious agencies\".



Hans


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LegalTransform  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:51
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
suggestions Mar 1, 2002

I can totally understand why ProZ does not want to make this information available because if people are circumventing the bidding systems and contacting agencies directly, than ProZ is losing money. There is always the rotten apple that spoils the whole bunch for the rest of us. Obviously, there are not enough paying members to pay for the cost of running this site. Otherwise, the $1 cost to bid might not have been implementend in the first place. Also, if you are an agency posting a job, do you suddenly want all these people contacting you from outside this site?

My suggestion is this:

Firstly, do list the country where the poster is located. I believe that this is essential.

Secondly, if ProZ receives xxx complaints about an agency/poster from \"winning\" bidders, ProZ can, based on the nature of the complaints, ban that poster from posting any additional jobs in the future. If payment is at issue, said poster may be reinstated after proof of payment is received.

Thirdly, 60-90 days after winning a bid, translators are sent an e-mail asking them to make a comment in the \"Agency Ratings\" section regarding their experience ala Ebay\'s feedback forum.

AND/OR

Only paying ProZ members can have access to the poster\'s complete information: \"Name, Address, Phone, Website, etc.\" since they are not paying the $1 anyway and this would be an additional incentive to become a paying member.



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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 19:51
SITE FOUNDER
Those messages are not from us. Mar 1, 2002

The \"good father\" messages (sometimes signed \"godfather\", or other names) did not come from us. Someone used the email option in the profile pages to send messages with info@proz.com as the reply address. (Today, we changed the function so that this will no longer be possible.)



As for removing the link that would allow members to view an outsourcer\'s email address, this has to do with privacy; it has nothing to do with collecting dollars.



First of all, let me clear up what seems to be a common misconception: ProZ.com does not make any significant income from job postings. When you see 17 bids on a job, the majority have been made by platinum members, and most of those that haven\'t are paid in browniz. I don\'t know the exact figure, but I would estimate that ProZ.com makes no more than $2-$5 on any job posting. This is not nothing, but it is a rather insignificant amount compared to the amount we spend on keeping the servers running, sending out the email notifications on a related job, etc. So again, the main reason for us to charge the $1 bids is to filter out non-serious bids. In this respect, the charge has been very successful.



In short, please do not assume that we have prejudices in this matter. We don\'t.



Returning to the issue of the email addresses, we have a privacy policy that protects the private information of service providers and outsourcers alike. Liuke freelancers, outsourcers have the right to make their email addresses public--and many do. But they also have the right to not make them public. This makes sense not only from a privacy standpoint, but also in light of the fact that processing bids, responding to them, etc., can be very time intensive by regular email. If an outsourcer prefers to process bids using the automated control page that we provide, then we want to channel bids to that page for them.



As for the general issue of transparency in the jobs system, I am in full agreement with the general sentiment that more transparency would be better (though compared to other marketplace sites on the Internet, I think we compare well in terms of providing direct access to real names, profile pages, etc.)



As many of you know, scaling up our hardware has been our number one priority lately. After all, without a solid foundation, there would be no jobs system at all. Improving the job system is our next priority.



Thanks for your support and patience.


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