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E-mail removed from all \"Close bidding\" pages (Part 2)
Thread poster: bochkor
bochkor
Local time: 03:54
English to German
+ ...
Mar 2, 2002

I\'m continuing the thread here, in order not to lose focus by slipping off the front page, because this problem is not solved and we\'d like to continue bidding NOW, even over the weekend. The previous thread can be found here for those who are only joining our discussion now:



http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&eid_c=14194&topic=1532&forum=18&25



So Henry, the reasons in your reply have clearly been proven wrong by the arguments that followed, so please, step up to the plate now and reply to ALL of us translators, whether you will implement proper identification for posters or not, thereby putting us paying members as a priority! YES or NO? Say it out loud!



Secondly, this morning I have received another anonymous hate mail from you and we all didn\'t buy that you\'ve just disabled the way to send e-mails on behalf of ProZ. My hate mails started as of yesterday (after and because I\'ve posted this thread to the forum) and their contents also prove it\'s you trying to intimidate us (which won\'t work, by the way), because THEIR CONTENT is in defense of you and ProZ\'s business interests. Well, who in the world would be driven to anonymously take your side, if they can do it publicly on any forum? Beside the header info proof, this is another reason why it\'s you! Here\'s the e-mail from this morning:

_________________



-----------

You have been sent a message via your ProZ.com page.

Author: ggrandfather

-----------



Now, you see Henry does not make much money. Only 2 to 5 dollars. So let him earn some money at least. You people get so many things free of cost.

Rgards,

ggrandfather



-----------

Keep your profile up to date:

http://www.proz.com/translator/14194

To login and edit your profile, go to:

http://www.proz.com/translator/

-----------

__________________________________________



Now comes the header info as proof:



Return-Path: proz@proz.com

Delivered-To: bochkor@ivwnet.com

Received: from asa.proz.com (proz.com [216.218.254.146])

by server11.safepages.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A68514F4BE

for bochkor@ivwnet.com; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:19:54 +0000 (GMT)

Received: from proz by asa.proz.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian))

id 16h5gD-0004aR-00

for bochkor@ivwnet.com; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 09:19:49 +0000

To: bochkor@ivwnet.com

Subject: [ProZ mail] again you!

From: info@priz.com

Reply-To: info@priz.com

X-Mailer: PHP/4.0.6

Message-Id: E16h5gD-0004aR-00@asa.proz.com

Sender: proz@proz.com

Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 09:19:49 +0000

_______________________________________



See? Anyone can alter the \"From\" field (now to info@priz.com), but nobody can change the \"Return-Path\", \"Message-Id\", \"Sender\" and the rest, which clearly shows that it was sent out from proz@proz.com. You can\'t deny this is proof, because this is also what Yahoo\'s and Hotmail\'s Anti-Abuse Department goes by when investigating. So what kind of cheap hacker tricks are these anyway? Henry, stop playing!



And answer the REAL question right here and right now: proper ID for posters, YES or NO?! Paying members (translators) your priority, YES or NO?!


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 03:54
German to English
+ ...
Got the same e-mail Mar 2, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-03-02 13:39, bochkor wrote:

I\'m continuing the thread here, in order not to lose focus by slipping off the front page, because this problem is not solved and we\'d like to continue bidding NOW, even over the weekend. The previous thread can be found here for those who are only joining our discussion now:



http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&eid_c=14194&topic=1532&forum=18&25



So Henry, the reasons in your reply have clearly been proven wrong by the arguments that followed, so please, step up to the plate now and reply to ALL of us translators, whether you will implement proper identification for posters or not, thereby putting us paying members as a priority! YES or NO? Say it out loud!



Secondly, this morning I have received another anonymous hate mail from you and we all didn\'t buy that you\'ve just disabled the way to send e-mails on behalf of ProZ. My hate mails started as of yesterday (after and because I\'ve posted this thread to the forum) and their contents also prove it\'s you trying to intimidate us (which won\'t work, by the way), because THEIR CONTENT is in defense of you and ProZ\'s business interests. Well, who in the world would be driven to anonymously take your side, if they can do it publicly on any forum? Beside the header info proof, this is another reason why it\'s you! Here\'s the e-mail from this morning:

_________________



-----------

You have been sent a message via your ProZ.com page.

Author: ggrandfather

-----------



Now, you see Henry does not make much money. Only 2 to 5 dollars. So let him earn some money at least. You people get so many things free of cost.

Rgards,

ggrandfather



-----------

Keep your profile up to date:

http://www.proz.com/translator/14194

To login and edit your profile, go to:

http://www.proz.com/translator/

-----------

__________________________________________



Now comes the header info as proof:



Return-Path: proz@proz.com

Delivered-To: bochkor@ivwnet.com

Received: from asa.proz.com (proz.com [216.218.254.146])

by server11.safepages.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A68514F4BE

for bochkor@ivwnet.com; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:19:54 +0000 (GMT)

Received: from proz by asa.proz.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian))

id 16h5gD-0004aR-00

for bochkor@ivwnet.com; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 09:19:49 +0000

To: bochkor@ivwnet.com

Subject: [ProZ mail] again you!

From: info@priz.com

Reply-To: info@priz.com

X-Mailer: PHP/4.0.6

Message-Id: E16h5gD-0004aR-00@asa.proz.com

Sender: proz@proz.com

Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 09:19:49 +0000

_______________________________________



See? Anyone can alter the \"From\" field (now to info@priz.com), but nobody can change the \"Return-Path\", \"Message-Id\", \"Sender\" and the rest, which clearly shows that it was sent out from proz@proz.com. You can\'t deny this is proof, because this is also what Yahoo\'s and Hotmail\'s Anti-Abuse Department goes by when investigating. So what kind of cheap hacker tricks are these anyway? Henry, stop playing!



And answer the REAL question right here and right now: proper ID for posters, YES or NO?! Paying members (translators) your priority, YES or NO?!





Right on! A lot of fishy things are happening here (these \"anonymous\" e-mails are just one example, in addition to the deliberate personal attacks by others that Henry intentionally and willingly condones).



As I said, someone from the outside needs to come in and clean house.

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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:54
English to German
+ ...
A message to Henry Mar 2, 2002

Henry, I really admire your patience in dealing with these very personal attacks, not just on the site you\'re running, but on your integrity as a person, and a businessman.



I would like to expressly distance myself from all these self-appointed \"web policemen\" - guys, if it\'s all so easy and straightforward, why don\'t you go ahead and establish a site that competes with ProZ, whilst adhering to the \"moral standards\" you\'re proclaiming here? Constructive criticism is always welcome, but I guess for some it\'s time to wake up to reality.



Ralf



PS Any semi-experienced hacker will tell you that *all* IP header fields can be tampered with...


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 03:54
German to English
+ ...
Reply to Ralf Mar 2, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-03-02 16:41, Lemster wrote:

Henry, I really admire your patience in dealing with these very personal attacks, not just on the site you\'re running, but on your integrity as a person, and a businessman.



I would like to expressly distance myself from all these self-appointed \"web policemen\" - guys, if it\'s all so easy and straightforward, why don\'t you go ahead and establish a site that competes with ProZ, whilst adhering to the \"moral standards\" you\'re proclaiming here? Constructive criticism is always welcome, but I guess for some it\'s time to wake up to reality.



Ralf



PS Any semi-experienced hacker will tell you that *all* IP header fields can be tampered with...





If you so abhor personal attacks, Ralf, why don\'t you talk to Henry and tell him to cut it out himself? He\'s intentionally allowed abusive messages to be posted to the forums and refuses to take action (which is an admission of his guilt in this case). If the site owner himself violates his own rules of netiquette, why shouldn\'t we?

Direct link Reply with quote
 

Luca Tutino  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:54
Member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
Not so sure Mar 2, 2002

Dear Laszlo,



I am not really sure that I would like to abolish the possibility of offering jobs without releasing an email address. Should this lead to less offers we translators would have a disadvantage.



The matter should be discussed in the to do forum without preconceptions. My proposal would be to leave the choice to the poster, and then just mark the posters that do not want to show their email/identity. The ideal would be having grading the job posters with words like \"verified/reserved/concealed/anonymous\") for every job offer...



Of course, I used to check the address with \"close bid\", but that was not the only way to check out the offerer. The proper and main way to check if a job is safe, is to ask for a complete PO, with all information and signature, before starting any work. Discard anonymous requests for test longer than 25-50 words and decide if you can take the risk of wasting your time by bidding to an anonymous poster.



I think these rules are fair to platinum members - since the price is not as high as we should pay for an agent that passes as jobs already checked out.



However you are right on one point: Henry should ALWAYS state the above conditions clearly to all members, and especially to those willing to pay.



The matter of the \"hate letters\" is not so bad: according to my experience of the net they not really flames, and the header is not really conlcusive evidence. However, should you be right, they seem to reveal an unexpected possible infantile aspect of Henry. Not much worse than your attitude with \"yes or no\" in capital letter, i find.


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Rick Henry  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:54
Italian to English
+ ...
proz@proz.com email return path... Mar 2, 2002

this email return path shows up on all outgoing proz.com mail. Try this:

Go to your profile page. Click on \"Send email to this person\". When you receive the email, you\'ll see the same header info.

Your email could have come from ANYONE who has registered at proZ, and we all know that you only need an email address to register here. I\'m not really sure where the idea originally started, but I don\'t see any proof that Henry is actually the author of these emails.

R.

==



Quote:


On 2002-03-02 13:39, bochkor wrote:

...

Now comes the header info as proof:



Return-Path: proz@proz.com

Delivered-To: bochkor@ivwnet.com

Received: from asa.proz.com (proz.com [216.218.254.146])

by server11.safepages.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A68514F4BE

for bochkor@ivwnet.com; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:19:54 +0000 (GMT)

Received: from proz by asa.proz.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian))

id 16h5gD-0004aR-00

for bochkor@ivwnet.com; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 09:19:49 +0000

To: bochkor@ivwnet.com

Subject: [ProZ mail] again you!

From: info@priz.com

Reply-To: info@priz.com

X-Mailer: PHP/4.0.6

Message-Id: E16h5gD-0004aR-00@asa.proz.com

Sender: proz@proz.com

Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 09:19:49 +0000

_______________________________________



See? Anyone can alter the \"From\" field (now to info@priz.com), but nobody can change the \"Return-Path\", \"Message-Id\", \"Sender\" and the rest, which clearly shows that it was sent out from proz@proz.com. You can\'t deny this is proof, because this is also what Yahoo\'s and Hotmail\'s Anti-Abuse Department goes by when investigating. So what kind of cheap hacker tricks are these anyway? Henry, stop playing!



And answer the REAL question right here and right now: proper ID for posters, YES or NO?! Paying members (translators) your priority, YES or NO?!



Direct link Reply with quote
 
Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 03:54
German to English
+ ...
Reply to Rick Mar 2, 2002

If that\'s the case, then Henry would have a record or log of the member that sent the message through the ProZ site.



At a minimum, even if that person is not logged in, he would see his/her IP address and could cross-reference that with his members on file.



In short, these messages are sent through the ProZ server, so Henry knows who that idiot is. But he\'s not telling us. Why?


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Rick Henry  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:54
Italian to English
+ ...
logs, etc. Mar 2, 2002

I\'m quite sure that he does have logs indicating exactly where the message came from. He probably has not looked at the logs to find out. This brings me to my next topic. As you suggested in another thread, more staff is needed to handle the volume. I don\'t think volunteer help would do the trick - all good intentions aside, the site isn\'t going to be a volunteer\'s number one priority. I think this person(s) needs to be a full time employee who handles nothing but support requests. And with that, a notice on the site explaining that this person is available to respond from x am to x pm Monday through Friday - all other emails will be answered on the next business day, or something like it.

I\'ve seen this time and again in the forums - people complaining about sending a support request, and not having it answered for days.

Upgrading their hardware is a good start for a site that has grown as rapidly as proZ. But hardware doesn\'t answer questions. Now is the time they should seriously think about adding staff.



R.

==

Quote:


On 2002-03-02 17:27, AbacusTrans wrote:

If that\'s the case, then Henry would have a record or log of the member that sent the message through the ProZ site.



At a minimum, even if that person is not logged in, he would see his/her IP address and could cross-reference that with his members on file.



In short, these messages are sent through the ProZ server, so Henry knows who that idiot is. But he\'s not telling us. Why?



Direct link Reply with quote
 

Roomy Naqvy  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 14:24
English to Hindi
+ ...
All puff and steam Mar 2, 2002

To Everyone Concerned,

I think Henry\'s good intentions and integrity should not be in doubt. People can disagree but not post \'flames\'/ \'attacks\' against Henry.



Finito.


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 03:54
German to English
+ ...
There IS doubt! Mar 2, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-03-02 18:33, roomynaqvy wrote:

To Everyone Concerned,

I think Henry\'s good intentions and integrity should not be in doubt. People can disagree but not post \'flames\'/ \'attacks\' against Henry.



Finito.





Given his role in posting several personal attacks, it is safe to say that there IS doubt!

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CLS Lexi-tech
Local time: 03:54
Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...
It takes one to know one Mar 2, 2002

What personal attacks are you referring to, Werner? Spell it out please, not just infer, suggest.

I want to see a personal attack by Henry in quotes.



paola l m



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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 03:54
German to English
+ ...
Read all related forums ... Mar 2, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-03-02 19:05, ludovici wrote:

What personal attacks are you referring to, Werner? Spell it out please, not just infer, suggest.

I want to see a personal attack by Henry in quotes.



paola l m







...instead of joining discussions in the middle without having done proper research first.



Besides, yes, it takes one to know one: I remember some heated tit-for-tat in these forums between you and somebody else that you had instigated.

Direct link Reply with quote
 

CLS Lexi-tech
Local time: 03:54
Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...
I have read the forums Mar 2, 2002

would it be too much trouble for you to quote the personal attack you are referring to, Werner?

And I have read more than one flames in which you figured front and center, here and elsewhere. This would be the second time in my 2 and half years in Proz.com in which I lose my cool, in the face of what sounds, in this case, like the need not to build a better site, but to bring somebody down.

The tactics of holding someone up for ransom to obtain some improvement of the site, do not work.



have fun



paola





Direct link Reply with quote
 

Rick Henry  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:54
Italian to English
+ ...
This has nothing to do with site improvement... Mar 2, 2002

That became evident quite some time ago.

In the close to six months I\'ve been with proZ, I\'ve seen NUMEROUS posts complaining about individuals, not the site or it\'s usefulness. A shame really.

The quote you\'re looking for is in the Bugs forum under \"Why are paying members not getting full service\". You be the judge.

Sigh.



R.

==

Quote:


On 2002-03-02 19:23, ludovici wrote:

...

The tactics of holding someone up for ransom to obtain some improvement of the site, do not work.



have fun



paola







Direct link Reply with quote
 
bochkor
Local time: 03:54
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The only reply missing is still Henry's Mar 2, 2002

Well, despite my harsh words I did intend originally to improve this site (not to put anybody down), so we should not sidetrack to other personal conflicts and other earlier forum topics, but focus on our one and only goal, which we seem to have in common:



- to require proper identification from posters, as well

- to get Henry to declare/realize that we translators, his only paying members, are his priority (why would a non-payer be?)



That\'s all I wanted, so we all can continue BIDDING SAFELY. And yes, I have used capital letters again to stress what I want to say and if someone doesn\'t like it, too bad, but let\'s focus on the main thing!



Regarding the e-mails, I really don\'t care much about them. I just wanted to post them, because they suspiciously coincide with the events, which is even better proof that they\'re from Henry (playing mafia), than the technical ones. Okay, I\'m not a hacker, Ralf, and you obviously don\'t understand the difference between personal attacks and personal criticism. So you wouldn\'t allow to criticize anybody personally, shut down free speech, change the U.S. Constitution, just by calling us \"self-appointed web policemen\" (which I, by the way, could take as a personal attack on your terms, but it\'s merely personal criticism and you\'re entitled to your opinion).



But in case you didn\'t notice, we\'re not trying to police anybody here, just get the same structure of accountability implemented as is in place for us translators, too. We have no problems identifying ourselves and so shouldn\'t they (the posters). And all this shouldn\'t even be such a big deal. On other websites it goes without saying and nobody is wondering why an e-mail address is required. This is so petty to even think about refusing it. After all, we\'re not asking for their social security number, right? We\'re asking for something reasonable: e-mail, business name (as registered), first & last name, full street address with zip code, (if they have any, then) website. And you don\'t need to hire a full-time support request person to do that, just implement the code in the script (Jason\'s job) just as easily and fast, as the e-mail addresses got removed from the \"Close bidding\" pages. On the other hand, e-mail is ALREADY required from anybody who signs up with ProZ, so I\'m sure Henry has the posters\' e-mails, too. He\'s just not sharing them with us! Well, but we\'re the ones running the risk of not getting paid, so he needs to!



So back to Henry, the question still stands: are we paying members your priority, YES or NO? And accordingly, are you willing to require proper ID from job posters in order to protect our interests, YES or NO?



(As I had said, we don\'t need to falsely inflate the number of job postings from bogus outsourcers, Henry, we\'re not impressed or fooled by it. Less, but real-value postings are just fine. We\'re a professional community, not bargain hunters!)



YES or NO?

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-03-02 23:58 ]


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