introduce per stroke quotation system and not even character...
Thread poster: xxxBrandis
xxxBrandis
Local time: 06:45
English to German
+ ...
May 30, 2008

Hi! Jive it goes like this - A line comprising 55 strokes including spaces and symbols price = to your quotation. Not character based or even word based. This is a hard machanism for all outsourcers, they have to think into the text, thence win respect what they outsource. But if that system is clear to you, many troubles are eliminated from the beginning. While translating we have to parse full file and not just a few words, this is equally good despite some repeats and matching algorhythms. Brandis

[Edited at 2008-05-30 17:07]


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Konstantin Kisin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:45
Member (2004)
Russian to English
+ ...
clarification May 31, 2008

Comprehension the post of your not was possible = clarification the required to same with urgency.

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Evonymus (Ewa Kazmierczak)  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 06:45
English to Polish
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:) May 31, 2008

Konstantin Kisin wrote:

Comprehension the post of your not was possible = clarification the required to same with urgency.


with Konstantin))


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KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 05:45
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
I think what he means is... May 31, 2008

... that lines should be added to the quoting system, since this is a standard method of measuring text for translation in German-speaking countries. I brought this up ages ago to the ProZ staff and I am sure that many others have done so, but nothing has changed on the quotation form, so I use that "other pricing" field a lot.

However, it should be pointed out that the "line" is not really standardized. Most people I know do in fact use 55 keystrokes, but I know a few agencies that use 50 keystrokes, and one well-known medical publisher uses 60 if I remember correctly. This diversity of definition might be one reason why "line" hasn't been added to the selection on the quote form.


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José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 01:45
English to Portuguese
+ ...
No standards for "page" either May 31, 2008

Kevin Lossner wrote:
However, it should be pointed out that the "line" is not really standardized. Most people I know do in fact use 55 keystrokes, but I know a few agencies that use 50 keystrokes, and one well-known medical publisher uses 60 if I remember correctly. This diversity of definition might be one reason why "line" hasn't been added to the selection on the quote form.


Quite logical. Using the same logic, there shouldn't be an option for job posters to measure the job in "pages", unless Proz wants to open a whole bi/multi-lingual DTP services division (which wouldn't be such a bad idea).

The most common text measurement in Brazil is the "lauda". It is just as accurately defined as "bottle". If you look it up in a PT dictionary, "lauda" means no more than a printed page.

For Brazilian certified public translators - whose mandatory rates for such kind of work are set by the local state government - a "lauda" is equivalent to 1,000 chars not counting spaces.

For most of the BR book publishers, a "lauda" is equivalent to 2,100 chars counting spaces too. But most, not all. Some use 1,800 chars, spaces inclusion TBA, eventually changed after the PO has been issued, if neither party bothered to mention it before.

So, just as "a bottle" does not imply any specific quantity of liquid, a "lauda" does not imply per se any specific quantity of text. So it's a you-name-it "measurement".

I'd move to strike out that possibility from the Proz job posting form. If DTP is included, page count can be mentioned in the job description section.


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Kristina Kolic  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 06:45
Member (2007)
English to Croatian
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Varying standard page in Croatia May 31, 2008

In Croatia, translations are charged per standard page, which vary from 1500 to 1800 characters.

New regulations were passed in 2005 for Certified Court Interpreters, which introduced charging on a 50-stroke line basis, i.e. a page of 30 lines, which totals to 1500 characters per page. However, many translators continue to charge on the basis of a page consisting of 1800 characters, while there are also translators who charge on a 1600-stroke page basis.

For this reason it is always important to ask the translator for precision when requesting a quote...

The calculation is quite simple: you divide the total character count by the number of characters in a standard page to get the number of standard pages to be multiplied by your rate.

Charging by word is also transparent, although a word may consist of 3 or 15 characters, and therefore it does not seem quite fair, in particular in German (with several words being added to form a single word).

But how do you actually charge by line? Do you set the margins in such a way that a line contains no more than 55 strokes? This would also mean using a certain font and font size only... Could someone give more precisions, please?


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 07:45
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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Character count is the most comprehensive Jun 1, 2008

Quoting per 1000 chars would be easy. In any chosen language a character is a character, but words, lines and pages vary.
I base my rates on character count and convert accordingly.
Regards
Heinrich


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 06:45
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
some explanation here.. Jun 1, 2008

Konstantin Kisin wrote:

Comprehension the post of your not was possible = clarification the required to same with urgency.
Hi! A line may have numbers symbols etc., Systems like Trados or other CAT tools usually do not count those. But in the translation process one has to parse everything including spaces ( strokes on the keyboard) symbols and etc., For example in case of Financial documents and or RFP one encounters usually large tables full of numbers. As we used to get hard copies earlier, we had to type everything and then do the translation by overtyping, this is twice the work. When large projects involving symbols and numbers come up, people usually take stroke count, this enables maintaining for format. So a sentence can be a simple, compound or even complex type. Hence we used to implement a 55 stroke system including all strokes leading to a standard line. I hope that explains it better now. A few agencies in Germany still implement this system. Brandis

[Edited at 2008-06-01 09:40]


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Kristina Kolic  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 06:45
Member (2007)
English to Croatian
+ ...
How do you actually count a 55-stroke line Jun 1, 2008

Brandis wrote:
Hence we used to implement a 55 stroke system including all strokes leading to a standard line. I hope that explains it better now. A few agencies in Germany still implement this system.


So how do you actually quote on a 55-stroke-line basis? Do You use the character count in Word (for instance) and divide it by 55 strokes in order to obtain the number of lines to be charged to your client? Or do you you use the line count in Word, which does not seem compatible with a 55-stroke-line if you do not set a specific font and font size to get a perfect 55-stroke line in your text...


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KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 05:45
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
You divide the characters by 55 Jun 1, 2008

Kristina Mijic wrote:
So how do you actually quote on a 55-stroke-line basis? Do You use the character count in Word (for instance) and divide it by 55 strokes in order to obtain the number of lines to be charged to your client? Or do you you use the line count in Word, which does not seem compatible with a 55-stroke-line if you do not set a specific font and font size to get a perfect 55-stroke line in your text...


You get a total character count with Word or AnyCount or whatever tool you choose to use and divide that by 55. So a text with 5500 characters is 100 lines long, and if your line rate is € 1.25, you would bid € 125 euros on the job.

It's a very simple calculation, but it's surprising how some agencies outside the German-speaking region get freaked out by client requests to quote a line rate for jobs. Not long ago I sent one of our good direct customers to an agency in another country that is rather good at the type of project support that they needed, and I even told this agency how much they could/should charge. In the end they screwed up the bid by insisting on a word rate (which the customer had never seen before) and charging a much lower rate than they could have (and should have). All this because they couldn't "understand" the requested rate structure.

Heck, if an Australian client asks me for a rate per hundred words, why should I have a problem with that? If the Brits want GBP per thousand words, who am I to argue? If someone wants "pages", as long as we can agree on a standard character count for the pages as opposed to physical pages, that's OK too. Or lines of whatever character length. Or better yet a fixed price quote detailing exactly which services are included in the bid (maybe OCR, proofreading by a second qualified translator, whatever). My overall price for the job will be the same no matter what units I quote it in. For purposes of bidding in the ProZ quoting system, however, it would be nice to have "line" among the options; the existing comment field can be used for specifying characters per line as well as target or source count (which unfortunately is missing altogether from the quote page - not good, as it is relevant to counts by any method!).


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 06:45
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
precisely that is what I am trying to get to Jun 1, 2008

@ Kevin,

" For purposes of bidding in the ProZ.com quoting system, however, it would be nice to have "line" among the options; the existing comment field can be used for specifying characters per line as well as target or source count (which unfortunately is missing altogether from the quote page - not good, as it is relevant to counts by any method!)."

Then we should standardize a line lenth by 55 strokes and not characters because we have spaces, numbers, symbols that comprise a line. Why don´t the outsourcers see that point, once we donot count the spaces and other objects, the sentence structure is no more intact. Years back we used to play this argument as customers wanted a quotation on the phone. It is indeed impossible to quote without seeing the document. So we used to calculate base price + some percentage capping it. Brandis


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