| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Every client has different invoicing systems Thread poster: Tom in London
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| I'm with Debs, Viktoria, etc. | Aug 29, 2008 |
I actually hate doing the invoices, but it does only take me a couple of hours at the end of the month. The only point where I beg to differ with Viktoria is the monthly statement - I include one giving job numbers, word count and rate charged per job for all clients as a matter of routine, both for their convenience (given that for one or two clients there may be 50+ jobs in any given month) and as a cross-check that the invoice itself is correct. It takes seconds - I just copy it across from m... See more I actually hate doing the invoices, but it does only take me a couple of hours at the end of the month. The only point where I beg to differ with Viktoria is the monthly statement - I include one giving job numbers, word count and rate charged per job for all clients as a matter of routine, both for their convenience (given that for one or two clients there may be 50+ jobs in any given month) and as a cross-check that the invoice itself is correct. It takes seconds - I just copy it across from my jobs Excel file, which itself has a separate spreadsheet for each client.
I have had clients who wanted me to use their own invoice template in the past - curiously, they were always the ones who wanted to pay lower rates. They're no longer my clients.
[Edited at 2008-08-29 12:02] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andre Pellet (X) 
Local time: 05:01
| Interesting Topic - and more questions | Aug 29, 2008 |
All,
This topic is very interesting and something that has come up a number of times. If there was a more standardized approach to invoicing (and receiving invoices by the outsourcer), would this be of interest? Some questions for the group:
1) Do most people generate traditional paper (or PDF) invoices, and mail or email them, or are electronic systems being used?
2) When do you normally invoices - when the job is completed (i.e. send it with the file), or mont... See more All,
This topic is very interesting and something that has come up a number of times. If there was a more standardized approach to invoicing (and receiving invoices by the outsourcer), would this be of interest? Some questions for the group:
1) Do most people generate traditional paper (or PDF) invoices, and mail or email them, or are electronic systems being used?
2) When do you normally invoices - when the job is completed (i.e. send it with the file), or monthly?
3) Do many people have recurring invoices, or normal per-project invoices?
4) Regarding the T&C question, are most people including this in the invoice, or has it already been established through an umbrella agreement like and SLA?
5) How do most outsourcers pay - via check or electronically?
6) What systems do most translators use to manage invoices: Quickbooks, excel, home-built database, other?
7) Are electronic signatures widely used?
Thank you, I look forward to learning more.
-Andre Pellet ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:01
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER | What I was aiming at | Aug 29, 2008 |
Andre Pellet wrote:
All,
This topic is very interesting and something that has come up a number of times. If there was a more standardized approach to invoicing (and receiving invoices by the outsourcer), would this be of interest? Some questions for the group:
1) Do most people generate traditional paper (or PDF) invoices, and mail or email them, or are electronic systems being used?
2) When do you normally invoices - when the job is completed (i.e. send it with the file), or monthly?
3) Do many people have recurring invoices, or normal per-project invoices?
4) Regarding the T&C question, are most people including this in the invoice, or has it already been established through an umbrella agreement like and SLA?
5) How do most outsourcers pay - via check or electronically?
6) What systems do most translators use to manage invoices: Quickbooks, excel, home-built database, other?
7) Are electronic signatures widely used?
Thank you, I look forward to learning more.
-Andre Pellet
Andre, this was kind of what I was aiming at when I first started this thread. Wondering if there might in future be some sort of Proz.com standard invoice. Or maybe I'm asking the impossible.
My answers to your 7 questions are:
1. only ever electronic, by email
2. monthly, for all the jobs I've done that month
3. both recurring and per-project
4. I never put T&C on invoices, except occasionally for some details of how I would like to be paid. I make sure all other terms are agreed BEFORE starting work, not when the job is done
5. Electronically only
6. I organise each job into standard folders "The Material" "Correspondence" "Invoicing" and file everything away in those 3 folders
7. I don't sign them.
[Edited at 2008-08-29 15:28]
| | | | USER0059 (X)
Finland
Local time: 12:01
English to Finnish
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| Billing, my favourite pastime | Aug 29, 2008 |
Tom in London wrote:
One thing that takes up an inordinate amount of my time, at the end of every month, is invoicing all my clients for jobs done in that month.
I find this incredibly time-consuming and tedious especially for very small jobs where the amount of time I spend organising the invoice correctly is almost equal to the amount of time I spent doing the translation !
Someone sympathise.
I can offer sympathy, but not empathy, for I love mailing away those invoices. In a few days, it will be that time of the month again. Yay!
(Maybe I should set up an invoicing service for those otherwise inclined…)
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mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 05:01
Spanish to English
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| International invoicing - a minefield! | Aug 29, 2008 |
Before answering André's specific questions, some general comments may be useful.
There are two main sets of requirements to be fulfilled by any invoicing system - whether it is used for our business or any other.
First, invoices must comply with the relevant legislation in the vendor's country. In some cases that may mean that no invoice is needed at all (e.g. in some countries freelance translation is a 'liberal profession', not subject to VAT and the vendor deliver... See more Before answering André's specific questions, some general comments may be useful.
There are two main sets of requirements to be fulfilled by any invoicing system - whether it is used for our business or any other.
First, invoices must comply with the relevant legislation in the vendor's country. In some cases that may mean that no invoice is needed at all (e.g. in some countries freelance translation is a 'liberal profession', not subject to VAT and the vendor delivers a 'statement of fees', not an 'invoice'). One requirement, common to most countries, is that the invoice/statement of fees or whatever must be written in (one of the) national language(s). Some multilingual countries may require that invoices are bi/tri/-lingual (at least for certain parts of the document). In Belgium, for example, many invoices are bi-lingual French/Dutch, although I'm not sure if this is a legal requirement, a convenience for large companies such as public utilities covering all linguistic regions of the country, or a just ruse to make sure clients cannot complain that they 'didn't understand'). The form/content of an invoice (or substitute document) may be different for services that are exported as compared to those for 'inland' clients. Some countries require only the total amount and percentage of VAT - others require total and net amounts, the percentage and amount of VAT. Some require an item-by-item breakdown of all deliveries covered by the invoice (especially if different VAT rates apply to different types of goods/services). Some (most?) require the inclusion in a prominent position, of the word 'Invoice' (in an appropriate language). All (I imagine) require the identity of the issuer of the invoice (maybe with a tax ID number) and date of issue - and some require the 'due date'. Other requirements concern the number of copies that must be made of an invoice - here (Chile) it's usually four - one for the client, one for the IRS, two for me - one of which may have to be given up later to the IRS to cross-check their first copy.
I'll stop there - there are hundreds of possible combinations and permutations, most of which any individual translator will never need. Suffice it to say that I have used my home-brew system in three different countries and have had to adapt it to suit local legislation each time. It should be borne in mind, too, that all these requirements are in a state of flux, especially with the arrival of electronic invoicing, electronic statements of fees etc. - and it would be foolhardy to assume that such development are the preserve of G7 nations. The Chilean IRS, for example, now allows electronic invoicing by certain categories of companies, including SMEs (i.e. many of us translators), and electronic statements of fees for those in the 'liberal professions'. A recent change on the legislative front, here in Chile, is that translations for clients outside the country require the issue of an export invoice using a special tax ID number different to the vendor's tax ID for inland sales. International invoicing is a highly volatile activity.
Second, there are the requirements intended to ensure that an invoice is legally enforceable in the client's country. When invoicing 'inland' that's no problem - what's good for the vendor is good for the client too. Within major economic groupings, such as the EU, legislation is in place (or being set up) to provide a framework to ensure the validity of cross-border invoices within their respective markets.
That said, there are some clients who, for reasons specific to them, do not conform to the 'general model' in their country. One example - no doubt relevant to a number of users of this site - is international organizations based in Switzerland (or elsewhere). These organizations (not just the UN and its agencies - there are dozens if not hundreds of them...) each have their own arrangements with the Swiss tax authorities and may be exonerated from this or that requirement which would apply if they were Swiss companies. As an example, one of my Swiss-based clients is registered as a not-for-profit scientific organization (or something to that effect) and they require me to send them an 'original' document, bearing my signature, the word 'Facture' (invoice) and the total amount due. Consequently, I have to invoice them by snail mail. This is not a case of me accepting their T&C (see earlier posts in this thread) - it is me accepting that because this client is a 'special case' within its host country, there are client-specific requirements when invoicing them. This is one of the hazards of working in the global economy - and I guess most of us, by the very nature of our work, are part of that economy. Again, the combinations and permutations are countless.
Apart from those two sets of requirements - which may be mutually incompatible - there are various 'nice to have' features in any worthwhile invoicing/accounting system. A few of those were mentioned in my first post in this thread.
Moving on to André's questions:
André asked:
1) Do most people generate traditional paper (or PDF) invoices, and mail or email them, or are electronic systems being used?
With my current client base I use both paper (I mean 'real' snail-mailed paper, not e-mailed PDF), e-mailed Word docs (not PDF'd - I trust those clients), and e-mails with the invoice info in the message body. I also generate paper copies as per local legislation and for my personal records.
2) When do you normally invoices - when the job is completed (i.e. send it with the file), or monthly?
My invoices are dispatched as soon as the job is completed. I know they will end up in a queue at the client's accounting department - there's no reason to exacerbate the delays by holding them in a queue at my end even before sending them! They are addressed to whoever is intended to get them, as recorded in my database: the commissioner, the accounts department, or whatever else has been agreed in advance.
3) Do many people have recurring invoices, or normal per-project invoices?
My client base is smallish. Nonetheless, every invoice is a 'one-off', written up by my software to suit the particular combination of client/job parameters.
4) Regarding the T&C question, are most people including this in the invoice, or has it already been established through an umbrella agreement like and SLA?
T&C are agreed with clients when the first job is negotiated (and in most cases, my T&C prevail over the client's, unless there are very good reasons to do otherwise). In subsequent jobs, there is either tacit agreement that the last-used T&C still apply, or there is renegotiation for 'this and future jobs' or for 'this job only' (those distinctions affect how the T&C are recorded in my database). Once the T&C are agreed (or revised) a copy is attached to the first job to which they are relevant. Subsequent invoices covered by the same T&C include a reference such as "This invoice is in accordance with T&C dated ...". The invoice includes also a textual quote from the relevant T&C stating the terms of payment - i.e. the only T&C which is actually relevant to the person who is making the payment.
5) How do most outsourcers pay - via check or electronically?
In principle I only take payment by transfer to a bank account (that's leaving aside the occasional payment 'in kind' - such as a case of wine...).
6) What systems do most translators use to manage invoices: Quickbooks, excel, home-built database, other?
I don't know about 'most translators'. I myself personally use an 8-year-old home-brew and oft-modified Access database as mentioned earlier in this thread. It's nearing the end of its useful life and I'm looking into the development of a web-based system offering similar functionality and extendible to handle a fresh range of commercial services that I'm planning to bring to market within the next year or so.
7) Are electronic signatures widely used?
Not by me - yet. However, as this technology forms an integral part of the Chilean IRS electronic invoicing system I guess I'll have to incorporate this into my next-generation system.
MediaMatrix ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Local regulations | Aug 29, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
A number of clients from my own country have also told me that it is a local legal requirement for service providers to send a monthly statement, in addition to the invoices. Not sure how true this is.
Let's assume it is true. Still, if in your country, regulations differ from one region to the next, it is (unless South Africa has an excentric legal system) the regulations in the vendor's region that shall be complied with. So, whether what those clients told you is true or not is irrelevant. As long as you comply with local regulations, you're covered.
Seems I'm not the only one with this mentality:
mediamatrix wrote:
First, invoices must comply with the relevant legislation in the vendor's country.
Of course, the fact that a client may view your non-compliance with their accounting system as arrogant and refuse to work with you because of this is another matter. Generally, I don't care. As Marie-Hélène pointed out, there seems to exist a parallel between agencies who try to dictate their own invoice templates to their vendors and agencies who pay low rates. You never know - they may be one and the same...
[Edited at 2008-08-29 22:18]
| | | | NMR (X)
France
Local time: 11:01
French to Dutch
+ ...
André asked:
1) Do most people generate traditional paper (or PDF) invoices, and mail or email them, or are electronic systems being used?
Paper invoices and snail mail only.
2) When do you normally invoices - when the job is completed (i.e. send it with the file), or monthly?
Once per month. I have about 8-10 invoices per month for about 50 jobs, big and small ones. In some rare cases (new clients) I make a special invoice for one job. Invoicing is just a question of taking all purchase orders or quotes and insert the right jobs on the right invoice; this takes me about two hours per month.
4) Regarding the T&C question, are most people including this in the invoice, or has it already been established through an umbrella agreement like and SLA?
T&C and SLA are sometimes discussed and signed before the first job, or once a year. In other cases there are some conditions (especially payment terms) on my quote.
5) How do most outsourcers pay - via check or electronically?
I prefer bank transfer but some companies pay by check (I am in France...).
6) What systems do most translators use to manage invoices: Quickbooks, excel, home-built database, other?
I don't know about 'most translators' neither. I use an old Word template for each client, as Jenny indicates, which contains his address, VAT number and other data and where I just change the number of the invoice and indicate the translations done in this month. I inserted formulas in order to calculate automatically the total, the VAT and the general total. It could have been done in Excel.
7) Are electronic signatures widely used?
No, what for?
And now my question: how about outsourcing robots ? I know that there are agencies which assign automatically translators to their jobs (there are no project managers or assistants), the translator sends the translation back and the robot calculates the price (and Trados reductions, of course) and VAT and generates an 'invoice' (yes, the client makes the invoice!!) and then, one or two months later, sends the money. Are these systems widely used?
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