Mobile menu

Don't let EU clients post jobs w/ geographical restictions (staff: 'their reasons are valid')
Thread poster: Williamson

Williamson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:05
Flemish to English
+ ...
Jun 29, 2003

Far too often bids are published where bidder must live in a certain E.U.-country in order to be able to bid.
On the following link, you can find the official E.U.-policy with regard to free competition:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/competition/citizen/index_en.html

Proz observes new E.U. VAT regulations, shouldn't it also observe the regulations with regard to free competition within the framework of the E.U. and adapt its policies towards making it impossible for a bidder in the E.U. to post a job-offer with : living in country X,Y,Z of the E.U. only.


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 17:05
SITE FOUNDER
There is usually a good reason for a geographical stipulation Jun 29, 2003

Consider that clients generally want as many qualified professionals to express interest in their jobs as possible. So when they require service providers live in a certain area, there is usually a reason.

Valid reasons include:

- The job is in-house

- The job is onsite interpreting

- They require (or their end client requires) someone local to the target area

- Nationality is a concern (government or military jobs)

- There are accounting, currency or taxation issues

For these reasons and more, it would be inappropriate for us to block clients from making geographical specifications in their job postings.


Direct link Reply with quote
 

invguy  Identity Verified
Bulgaria
Local time: 00:05
English to Bulgarian
We're still too far from the ideal free market... Jun 29, 2003

... even though easily accessible online communication has brought us much closer to it.

Business-wise, Henry is right IMO. The validity of his arguments is obvious.

I could add that many clients still feel safer if they can meet you in person - be it only once. Irrational as it may seem to us online souls, good old-fashioned handshake still hasn't found a replacement in the 'global village'... tax numbers, VID-ding, e-signatures and all that jazz notwithstanding...

Indeed, when is comes to trust, a real human being sitting right across the table from you can't be beaten by a sequence of bytes - no matter how sophisticated the latter might be. Not that I'm *that* conservative myself - but I can see where the occasional traditionally-minded client is coming from, and can't blame them.


Direct link Reply with quote
 

sylver  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:05
English to French
Misinterpretation. Jun 30, 2003

Williamson wrote:

Far too often bids are published where bidder must live in a certain E.U.-country in order to be able to bid.
On the following link, you can find the official E.U.-policy with regard to free competition:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/competition/citizen/index_en.html

Proz observes new E.U. VAT regulations, shouldn't it also observe the regulations with regard to free competition within the framework of the E.U. and adapt its policies towards making it impossible for a bidder in the E.U. to post a job-offer with : living in country X,Y,Z of the E.U. only.


Wait a minute. That is a misinterpretation of what "free competition" is supposed to be and do.

"Free Competition" is between "providers". Us. It means that we should not establish monopolistic practices. This legislation is made to protect the rights of the customers to decide who to buy from, and get reasonably priced services.

A customer (agency, direct client) has full rights to decide who he is going to buy from, where his provider should be located, what specializations his provider should have....

If Joe Blow wants a translator from east keokuk village, he has full rights to ask for it. That's his money, and up to him to decide whose services he wants to hire.

What about online booking? Suppose I wanna go see a movie. Should I be forbiden to specify in which area the movie theater should be? That could get real funny!


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Antonella Andreella  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 23:05
German to Italian
+ ...
Agree with Sylver Jun 30, 2003

Regards


Antonella


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Parrot  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 23:05
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Other reasons I've encountered Jun 30, 2003

Apart from what Henry said, here are some other reasons I've come across:

- "We only have it on 500 pages of hard copy." (Oops...)

- "The CD can be in your office in 10 minutes by prepaid taxi." (Can't even recommend a colleague from the same country...)


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Miller
Local time: 23:05
German to English
Free competition in the EEC Jul 1, 2003

Free competition within the EEC. It's just a myth.

Andy Miller, Germany



sylver wrote:

Williamson wrote:

Far too often bids are published where bidder must live in a certain E.U.-country in order to be able to bid.
On the following link, you can find the official E.U.-policy with regard to free competition:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/competition/citizen/index_en.html

Proz observes new E.U. VAT regulations, shouldn't it also observe the regulations with regard to free competition within the framework of the E.U. and adapt its policies towards making it impossible for a bidder in the E.U. to post a job-offer with : living in country X,Y,Z of the E.U. only.


Wait a minute. That is a misinterpretation of what "free competition" is supposed to be and do.

"Free Competition" is between "providers". Us. It means that we should not establish monopolistic practices. This legislation is made to protect the rights of the customers to decide who to buy from, and get reasonably priced services.

A customer (agency, direct client) has full rights to decide who he is going to buy from, where his provider should be located, what specializations his provider should have....

If Joe Blow wants a translator from east keokuk village, he has full rights to ask for it. That's his money, and up to him to decide whose services he wants to hire.

What about online booking? Suppose I wanna go see a movie. Should I be forbiden to specify in which area the movie theater should be? That could get real funny!


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Williamson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:05
Flemish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The Volkswagen Example. Jul 2, 2003

Valid reasons include:

- The job is in-house
- The job is onsite interpreting

The question and the quoted E.U.regulation dealt with the E.U.-market, not outside the E.U.
With high-speed trains (Eurostar, TGV, ICE (Germany) AVE in Spain) and low airfares (Ryanair,Virgin, Easyjet,Berlinair and others...) in Europe, getting on-site does not weigh so much on the budget of the customer. Neither is it a big problem for the customer to pay such fares. (range from 0 euro and only taxes when Ryanair gives away tickets to about 80 euro for a Eurostar ticket).
Who would accept an assignment of any agency or company which cannot pay such fares? Time in these cases is not an issue either.
----
- They require (or their end client requires) someone local to the target area
- Nationality is a concern (government or military jobs)
------
-Within the European context, the nationality requirement is : "Be a citizen of the E.U.", not a national of the country concerned, this also applies for government or police jobs. I am not sure about military jobs.
-----------------------------------
- There are accounting, currency or taxation issues
--------------------------------------
-What about I.A.S?
-Taxation is not the same in the entire E.U., that is true, but whether an agency or company in Greece pays an interpreter based in Finland should not make a difference. Both countries use the same currency and basically apply the same regulations with regard to VAT.
The Finnish interpreter working in Greece exports a service to another E.U.-country, meaning that no V.A.T.should be paid on that service.

It is true that when I took the standpoint of the consumer (the person who places the bid), I had the Volkswagen example at the back of my head: Volkswagen forced its dealers in Italy only to sell to Italians and got a billion euro fine from the European Commission for doing so, because they impeded the customer to sell their car where it suited them best in the E.U.

"Can one party based within the E.U. exclude another party in the same E.U. from bidding for a deal through an intermediary and to what extend does this consumer impedes the bidder to compete freely for a job". Is a bidding web-site not a job-market to a certain extend, just like a temporary employment-agency. Normally a British national with the necessary requirements must be able to bid for a job in Germany through such a temporary employment agency and vice-versa. Nationality muy not be a reason for exclusion by this intermediary.

Who are the customers of this website: the posters of job-offers or the bidders (Platinum members).
If this website claims to follow European legislation and have a division in Europe to what extend can it exclude its customers from bidding for a job (exclude them from the market)?


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Williamson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:05
Flemish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Erratum: Jul 2, 2003

Must be: "to buy their car".

Direct link Reply with quote
 

sylver  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:05
English to French
Going around the loop Jul 3, 2003

Williamson wrote:
"Can one party based within the E.U. exclude another party in the same E.U. from bidding for a deal through an intermediary and to what extend does this consumer impedes the bidder to compete freely for a job". Is a bidding web-site not a job-market to a certain extend, just like a temporary employment-agency. ...
Who are the customers of this website: the posters of job-offers or the bidders (Platinum members).
If this website claims to follow European legislation and have a division in Europe to what extend can it exclude its customers from bidding for a job (exclude them from the market)?



You get it wrong on that one, I think. Proz is a market place. Being a member of proz is like having your stand on a market place. Platinium gets you a better stand. That is the service Proz provides.

It would be a violation of the competition laws to emit restrictions as to who can become a member, or buy platinium. Basically, get a stall on the market place. Proz does not offer customers, but a spot where customers can contact you, or from which you can interpell customers passing by. (the guy happens to pass by your language pairs)

Now on the market place you are a provider. not a customer. Period. You got your stall there. Proz's services have already been provided. Now you are on your own trying to get some sales done. Competition is as free as possible, and there is no reason why the customer (not you) wouldn't have the right to decide where he wants to look for a provider. You are on a market place, but that's up to your customer to come to your part of the market place.

It's between you (provider) and them (translation buyers). Proz has nothing to do with that.

If you follow your line of thinking, why does Proz allow translation buyers to set which language pairs they are looking for? After all, it reduce greatly the volume of job offers you are able to see, doesn't it?


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 17:05
SITE FOUNDER
corrections Jul 3, 2003

Williamson wrote:
If this website claims to follow European legislation and have a division in Europe...


We do not have a division in Europe, and have not claimed to. We have an employee (a contractor) and a bank account.

As for us "following European legislation", in the case of VAT tax, stipulations were made for *non-EU companies*, and that is what applied to us. Other laws do not necessarily apply, as far as I know.

By the way, I do not agree with either your interpretation of the laws you cite, nor your characterization of ProZ.com's activities and how they relate.


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Williamson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:05
Flemish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
No tit-for-tat Jul 3, 2003

It was just a point of view. Sylver "enlightened" my mind. No further reason for discussion.
Proz is one site of information for translators. By the way, there are other sites where translators can find jobs(and not only the bidding sites like Proz, Aquarius, Translatorscafé etc...)


Direct link Reply with quote
 


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

Don't let EU clients post jobs w/ geographical restictions (staff: 'their reasons are valid')

Advanced search


Translation news





Wordfast Pro
Translation Memory Software for Any Platform

Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users! Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value

More info »
WordFinder
The words you want Anywhere, Anytime

WordFinder is the market's fastest and easiest way of finding the right word, term, translation or synonym in one or more dictionaries. In our assortment you can choose among more than 120 dictionaries in 15 languages from leading publishers.

More info »



All of ProZ.com
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs