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Thread poster: Dan Brennan

translator blacklists

Charlie Bavington

United Kingdom
Local time: 06:01
French to English

On the non-uniqueness of a given situation

Nov 29, 2009

Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:

Charlie Bavington wrote:

Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
But my friend, that exists already with the ATA certification.

No-one else in the entire world offers such a thing?

Indeed as Giovanni mentioned already, both the ITI and the IOL offer similar exams. There are other certification schemes, like that in Canada and Australia, for instance, with similar requirements and procedure... but all based on proctor-invigilated sittings.

Quite so. I've done the IoL one myself. I suspect my post merely demonstrates that certain aspects of shorter posts in particular may slip through the old cross-cultural filter from time to time, and the forum really does need a sarcasm indicator of some kind.

If the OP was in the US, I could have understood it, but what I really failed to grasp was why you decided to focus so specifically on the ATA as if, indeed, it was the only organisation in the known universe to provide such a much-needed service, whereas the truth is that any number of national bodies offer the same. All the more since the ATA's name has been slightly tarnished this week, in the eyes of many. It almost seemed like a gratuitous plug...:-)

Robert Forstag

United States
Local time: 01:01

Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...

@Charlie

Nov 29, 2009

How has the ATA become "slightly tarnished in the eyes of many" this week?

I missed the news. What happened?

Charlie Bavington

United Kingdom
Local time: 06:01
French to English

Blown over

Nov 29, 2009

Robert Forstag wrote:

How has the ATA become "slightly tarnished in the eyes of many" this week?

I missed the news. What happened?

I may have exaggerated the numbers; on re-reading, I suspect "eyes of some" would be more accurate (see, I said no good would come of a flying thing on fire!). But a quote by a prominent member of said organisation was used as a testimonial, making a feasible but poorly backed-up claim as regards the productivity levels that can be achieved using a widespread but not universally popular software package. There was muttering that this reflected badly on the ATA. I'm in a different continent, I have no view on the matter in that regard, although I did ask for clarification of certain aspects which was, broadly, received.

[Edited at 2009-11-29 13:29 GMT]

Robert Forstag

United States
Local time: 01:01

Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...

Thanks Charlie

Nov 29, 2009

Thanks for the clarification.

I think I had seen something about this....

It is hardly surprising. The software companies are all big advertisers and conference sponsors with ATA.... And I've never seen anything in the ATA monthly magazine that was sharply critical of the TM programs, or that closely examined whether some of the effects of said programs may be deleterious to the long-term interests of translators........

The ATA Conferences seem to essentially be showcases for the latest and greatest software packages that are supposed to make our lives so much easier. The companies producing these share center stage at these events with the large agencies that so often provide low rates in general--and that tend to squeeze translators even more with the differential rates for TM-produced translations......

So, again, not a surprise.......

[Edited at 2009-11-29 14:27 GMT]

polyglot45
English to French
+ ...

Which is why

Nov 29, 2009

such associations and translation sites are so extremely clever yet so devilishly dangerous: they cash in from both sides ....and the poor translator is, as ever, the pig in the middle, the one who takes the squeeze

Laurent KRAULAND

France
Local time: 07:01

Member (2007)
French to German
+ ...

OT: not only

Nov 29, 2009

WordSwitch wrote:

I don't profess to have anywhere near the degree of experience that many established members here have, but in my previous working life it became clear to me that any sole trader (as it seems the majority of translators are) will quickly become victims of word-of-mouth criticism if they consistently produce bad work.

Given the poisoned tongues and fangs of some colleagues - who don't know better either, believe me, even good and professional translators can be shot down in flames...

This is why (and, knowing the ways the human brain functions, I know this will hardly ever happen) such a feature/blacklist should allow some space for considering both the source and the target of the criticism (pun intended

)... and this may get way too personal: yesterday's friends are today's foes, and vice versa.

[Edited at 2009-11-29 17:04 GMT]

Laurent KRAULAND

France
Local time: 07:01

Member (2007)
French to German
+ ...

Read this one....

Nov 29, 2009

Robert Forstag wrote:

How has the ATA become "slightly tarnished in the eyes of many" this week?

I missed the news. What happened?

http://www.proz.com/forum/software_applications/151708-misleading_advert_34501_words_translated_in_10_hours_by_only_one_translator.html

Tomás Cano Binder, CT

Spain
Local time: 07:01

Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...

Just an example!

Nov 29, 2009

Charlie Bavington wrote:

Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
But my friend, that exists already with the ATA certification.

If the OP was in the US, I could have understood it, but what I really failed to grasp was why you decided to focus so specifically on the ATA as if, indeed, it was the only organisation in the known universe to provide such a much-needed service, whereas the truth is that any number of national bodies offer the same.

I was merely giving an example... There was no evil intention at all in using just one example. Please!

Tomás Cano Binder, CT

Spain
Local time: 07:01

Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...

Who and how?

Nov 29, 2009

Charlie Bavington wrote:
I may have exaggerated the numbers; on re-reading, I suspect "eyes of some" would be more accurate (see, I said no good would come of a flying thing on fire!). But a quote by a prominent member of said organisation was used as a testimonial, making a feasible but poorly backed-up claim as regards the productivity levels that can be achieved using a widespread but not universally popular software package.

OK. You say "a prominent member", but did this person speak on behalf of ATA or representing any ATA chapter? That is the key. You cannot make ATA responsible of whatever each of their members (no matter how "prominent") says.

Laurent KRAULAND

France
Local time: 07:01

Member (2007)
French to German
+ ...

OT: Psychological trick

Nov 29, 2009

Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
OK. You say "a prominent member", but did this person speak on behalf of ATA or representing any ATA chapter? That is the key. You cannot make ATA responsible of whatever each of their members (no matter how "prominent") says.

This is not the problem IMO, Tomás. What would we (you, Charlie and me) say if the statement in question had -God forbid!- been put in the mouth of "proeminent" members of ASETRAD, ITI, IOL or SFT known to us?

[Edited at 2009-11-29 19:06 GMT]

Tomás Cano Binder, CT

Spain
Local time: 07:01

Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...

Can you be more explicit please?

Nov 29, 2009

Robert Forstag wrote:
It is hardly surprising. The software companies are all big advertisers and conference sponsors with ATA.... And I've never seen anything in the ATA monthly magazine that was sharply critical of the TM programs, or that closely examined whether some of the effects of said programs may be deleterious to the long-term interests of translators........

It sounds to me Robert that you are saying that translation memory tools are negative for our profession? Or just some features of CAT tools? Or just some CAT tool in particular? Please let us know.

In my opinion it is unfair to say that ATA is hostage to software companies and does not warn translators about the evil aspects of CAT tools. In its 50 years of history, ATA has showcased all sorts of tools and solutions that can be useful to translators. Maybe translators who loved old mechanical typewriters were worried about electronic typewriters with memory when they were first described in the ATA Chronicle... Would you say ATA should have warned at that time about how devices with memory would transform the industry?

Tomás Cano Binder, CT

Spain
Local time: 07:01

Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...

What was the statement in the first place?

Nov 29, 2009

Laurent KRAULAND wrote:

But, what was the statement in the first place? Was it so evil and despicable?

Laurent KRAULAND

France
Local time: 07:01

Member (2007)
French to German
+ ...

OT of OT: Further analysis needed

Nov 29, 2009

Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
But, what was the statement in the first place? Was it so evil and despicable?

Giving the impression that one translator is able to translate 34,501 words precisely within 10 hours, without providing other precisions in the advertising e-mail and being forced to admit in ProZ.com fora only that the gist of the ad had to be taken with reservations is IMO bad (exaggerated) advertisement. As per the despicable aspect, I am offering to think that said ad would not have generated such a fuss would the translator have been John Doe, and not a known ATA member in charge of some important areas - see http://www.proz.com/forum/software_applications/151708-misleading_advert_34501_words_translated_in_10_hours_by_only_one_translator-page3.html#1270879

[Edited at 2009-11-29 19:25 GMT]

Robert Forstag

United States
Local time: 01:01

Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...

Explicitness

Nov 29, 2009

I was simply pointing out what would be obvious to anyone leafing through ATA's publications, looking through their conference sponsor lists, or attending their conferences. As for the double-edged-sword nature of the tools themselves, I would direct you to consider the following evidence: 1.) the expense of the tools in question; 2.) the considerable learning curve involved in mastering said tools; 3.) the defects and bugs in these tools resulting in the need for constant updating, resulting in headaches, lost time, and further expense for those using them; 4.) the problems that those using these tools seem to frequently experience, judging from the constant postings on the various forums here; 5.) the increasingly prevalent practice of quoting differential rates for exact, fuzzy matches, etc.

Obviously, a great many translators find these tools useful. I think the satisfaction rating with them is, however, somewhat short of overwhelmingly positive.

I am by no means saying that these tools are unequivocally "bad for the industry," much less evil. I also am not saying that ATA is "a hostage" to the big developers of these tools. I am simply saying that, as far as I can see, ATA has generally emphasized and promoted their usefulness and has not explored their problems and negative ramifications.

[Edited at 2009-11-30 12:37 GMT]