Non payment- is it an Internet Fraud?
Thread poster: Uldis Liepkalns

Uldis Liepkalns  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 10:01
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
Jan 17, 2004

Dear all,

Not so long ago I received a suggestion from one of our colleagues to treat the issue of non-payment (as we all do our business via Internet and seldom have hard copies of a PO, but only e-mailed POs) as an Internet Fraud. If the issue can be classified as such, it involves some new possible actions to take against offenders, e.g., to inform their ISP that their clients use their services in order to commit criminal offences (Internet Fraud in most countries constitute a criminal offence). The cases I refer to are not the ones of late payments (which is a separate issue), but the ones when a client does not pay and completely ignores your emails and other attempts to communicate with him after the job has been delivered.

Have any of you tried to tackle/solve the issue from such an angle? What are your thoughts on such an approach?

Uldis


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Andy Lemminger  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 01:01
Member (2002)
English to German
What would be the advantage? Jan 17, 2004

Sounds interesting. This way they would cut the Internet line. But the ISPs won't listen to you as long as you don't have evidence in form of a court ruling. Before you don't have that it is only an accusation.

And if you would bother to get it you could go to court to claim your money anyway.
The non-payers would be angry of course if you cut their line but they could just move on to the next provider.

Or do you have any additional intentions by doing that?


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Uldis Liepkalns  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 10:01
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
That is the issue Jan 17, 2004

that, if the non-payer is, say, in any EU or other Western country, there are ways to tackle the issue. But if they are in some other far away country- I do not have a slightest idea, how to approach a court there, besides the sums involved are not worth the expected expense. But that's what the suggestion is about- if you inform their Police Force, Chamber of Commerce, ISP, whatever, that XYZ is involved in Internet Fraud, especially if you know you're not the only one who has suffered...
Maybe I sound idealistic, but in this country no ISP will host a client suspected in Internet Fraud, mass mailing, etc, no court ruling is necessary for that, and AFAIK, there has not been a court claim by a spammer against ISP for cutting off his Internet connection, at least in this country. And of course it is possible to change the ISP, but it involves some additional expenses and, possibly, change of an address, which in turn, cuts you off from established clients.

Besides, in this country, whatever your ISP, agreement with it contains quite enough of small type to cut you off for whatever offence without any compensation or rights to appeal.

As to additional intentions- yes, they would be to cut off possibilities of non-payers to continue their business in the same way and thus save other professionals from being cheated.

Uldis

Andy Lemminger wrote:

Sounds interesting. This way they would cut the Internet line. But the ISPs won't listen to you as long as you don't have evidence in form of a court ruling. Before you don't have that it is only an accusation.

And if you would bother to get it you could go to court to claim your money anyway.
The non-payers would be angry of course if you cut their line but they could just move on to the next provider.

Or do you have any additional intentions by doing that?



[Edited at 2004-01-17 23:06]


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 09:01
English to German
+ ...
also my trouble Jan 18, 2004

Uldis Liepkalns wrote:

Dear all,

Not so long ago I received a suggestion from one of our colleagues to treat the issue of non-payment (as we all do our business via Internet and seldom have hard copies of a PO, but only e-mailed POs) as an Internet Fraud. If the issue can be classified as such, it involves some new possible actions to take against offenders, e.g., to inform their ISP that their clients use their services in order to commit criminal offences (Internet Fraud in most countries constitute a criminal offence). The cases I refer to are not the ones of late payments (which is a separate issue), but the ones when a client does not pay and completely ignores your emails and other attempts to communicate with him after the job has been delivered.

Have any of you tried to tackle/solve the issue from such an angle? What are your thoughts on such an approach?

Uldis
Hi! I am also facing currently same trouble with a chinese company. That man didn´t respond despite innumerable number of mails I had sent him. The payment was long overdue. It makes me very angry and I cannot help the situation. There is a service at proz. called blueboard notification. So I had entered a remark there.
Regards,
Bandi


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Rahi Moosavi  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 03:01
Member (2004)
Farsi (Persian) to English
+ ...
Debt Collectors Jan 19, 2004

Have your tried debt collecting agencies?

I am having this problem right now with an agnecy from UAE and they are totally ignoring my emails and calls after the job was delivered.

I posted this issue on Blue-Board and other payment practice lists and assigned a local debt collector to deal with them directly.

As for ISP's I don't think it would hurt these agencies that much to face a internet account suspension as they could always change ISP's easily.


Uldis Liepkalns wrote:

that, if the non-payer is, say, in any EU or other Western country, there are ways to tackle the issue. But if they are in some other far away country- I do not have a slightest idea, how to approach a court there, besides the sums involved are not worth the expected expense. But that's what the suggestion is about- if you inform their Police Force, Chamber of Commerce, ISP, whatever, that XYZ is involved in Internet Fraud, especially if you know you're not the only one who has suffered...
Maybe I sound idealistic, but in this country no ISP will host a client suspected in Internet Fraud, mass mailing, etc, no court ruling is necessary for that, and AFAIK, there has not been a court claim by a spammer against ISP for cutting off his Internet connection, at least in this country. And of course it is possible to change the ISP, but it involves some additional expenses and, possibly, change of an address, which in turn, cuts you off from established clients.

Besides, in this country, whatever your ISP, agreement with it contains quite enough of small type to cut you off for whatever offence without any compensation or rights to appeal.

As to additional intentions- yes, they would be to cut off possibilities of non-payers to continue their business in the same way and thus save other professionals from being cheated.

Uldis

Andy Lemminger wrote:

Sounds interesting. This way they would cut the Internet line. But the ISPs won't listen to you as long as you don't have evidence in form of a court ruling. Before you don't have that it is only an accusation.

And if you would bother to get it you could go to court to claim your money anyway.
The non-payers would be angry of course if you cut their line but they could just move on to the next provider.

Or do you have any additional intentions by doing that?



[Edited at 2004-01-17 23:06]


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