Paul Carmichael Spain Local time: 22:31 Member (2011) Spanish to English + ...
Jan 27
"Candidates" must submit a CV and prove 15 years experience in this sector to "qualify" to work for a paltry 10 euros per hour. And let's not forget the 150 word free translation^W^W test.
I'd hardly started in this industry and I'm not going to bother continuing.
Perhaps when I take my car for a service, and put my life in the hands of the mechanic, I should ask him for his CV and proof of 20 years experience before paying him double what I can earn in my "profession".
It's just a joke. I do feel for those that have to grovel to these agencies to be able to pay a mortgage/feed the kids etc, but I'm damned sure I'm not going to lower myself. I could earn more cleaning cars outside my house.
I feel I just wasted several years of my life and an awful lot of money in training.
Pity - I quite enjoy translating.
Perhaps I'll go back to IT.
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The Misha United States Local time: 16:31 Russian to English + ...
Hey, if you had it so good in IT, why did you bother leaving?
Jan 27
The truth of the matter is that this here is a business, first and foremost, not a job, and until and unless you treat it as such you are bound to be disappointed. Good luck to you either way.
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Sheila Wilson Spain Local time: 21:31 Member (2007) English + ...
Plenty more clients out there
Jan 27
Paul Carmichael wrote:
It's just a joke. I do feel for those that have to grovel to these agencies to be able to pay a mortgage/feed the kids etc, but I'm damned sure I'm not going to lower myself. I could earn more cleaning cars outside my house.
I feel I just wasted several years of my life and an awful lot of money in training.
Pity - I quite enjoy translating.
Perhaps I'll go back to IT.
Hello Paul,
A joke is what such jobs are, I agree. But what makes you think that the majority of us here and elsewhere in the world of translation accept these jobs?
The reason they are so visible is because these agencies are finding it almost impossible to find reliable translators (not surprisingly!). They might find someone today who is desperate, but that person may well do an awful job and not be a good bet for tomorrow's job. If today's person IS good, they will hopefully come to their senses when they get more and more work for stupidly-low rates, and start casting around for better clients. The "problem", if you look at it just from this one angle, is that the good clients' jobs aren't very visible on platforms like this. It maybe looks as though all members of ProZ.com must be accepting the stupidly low rates offered in job postings. It simply isn't true! The truth is that the best jobs are never posted. When good clients lose a trusted translator or need extra hands, they consult the directory and send a private job posting to their own list of chosen candidates. Other jobs are filled by word of mouth, through client and peer recommendations.
It is sad to see these jobs advertised so widely, but you really do need to ignore them and find yourself some decent clients who not only pay decent rates but also have some respect for their business partners.
Do you think it's any different in IT? I don't know what your area of expertise is but my son's a programmer and he finds exactly the same derisory jobs offered. He just ignores them, of course, and stays with his clients who want quality at a reasonable price, rather than simply wanting the lowest-possible rate.
I agree that it would be nice to see the back of these job offers and they do anger me from time to time. We're going through difficult times, with the availability of free "machine translations" making people think that translators are no more than copy typists - text goes in the eye comes out through the fingers in another language. But there is work out there for good translators and the more we excel, the more people will come to understand that translation is a skilled job requiring skilled translators.
Don't give up without a very big struggle, Paul!
Sheila
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Paul Carmichael Spain Local time: 22:31 Member (2011) Spanish to English + ...
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Just business.
Jan 27
The Misha wrote:
The truth of the matter is that this here is a business, first and foremostway.
Oh. Not a career then?
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Sigrid Andersen Austria Local time: 22:31 Member (2011) Danish to German + ...
Dont give up that easy
Jan 27
Hi Paul,
first of all, a heads up....yeps it certainly is not easy! BUT....i wouldnt give up tht easy...what about stopping to work for agencies and go for private customers instead...yes it´s a lot of work to get those on bord, you need to start out with phonecalls, meetings, buisness dinners etc, but you say you worked in IT as well, so you will have some good vocabulary in stock there. You could contact IT companies in your country and offer your services as IT translator.
It´s a different type of work and you have to work a lot more to start with, admitted, but un the long run I think this could be just the right thing for you, what do you think?
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Paul Carmichael Spain Local time: 22:31 Member (2011) Spanish to English + ...
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Perhaps its a matter of patience then?
Jan 27
Sheila Wilson wrote:
A joke is what such jobs are, I agree. But what makes you think that the majority of us here and elsewhere in the world of translation accept these jobs?
Obviously I'm making rash assumptions. But the job adverts on here are proclaimed to be one of the big advantages of subscribing.
The reason they are so visible is because these agencies are finding it almost impossible to find reliable translators (not surprisingly!). They might find someone today who is desperate, but that person may well do an awful job and not be a good bet for tomorrow's job. If today's person IS good, they will hopefully come to their senses when they get more and more work for stupidly-low rates, and start casting around for better clients. The "problem", if you look at it just from this one angle, is that the good clients' jobs aren't very visible on platforms like this. It maybe looks as though all members of ProZ.com must be accepting the stupidly low rates offered in job postings. It simply isn't true! The truth is that the best jobs are never posted. When good clients lose a trusted translator or need extra hands, they consult the directory and send a private job posting to their own list of chosen candidates. Other jobs are filled by word of mouth, through client and peer recommendations.
The scary thing is though, by the time I get to see the invitation to tender, they have already received lots of quotes. Do people automate this?
It is sad to see these jobs advertised so widely, but you really do need to ignore them and find yourself some decent clients who not only pay decent rates but also have some respect for their business partners.
I am thinking of unsubscribing from the job ad thing, because it just clogs up my inbox.
Do you think it's any different in IT? I don't know what your area of expertise is but my son's a programmer and he finds exactly the same derisory jobs offered. He just ignores them, of course, and stays with his clients who want quality at a reasonable price, rather than simply wanting the lowest-possible rate.
I was an employee of a large company. Got paid every month! Left it for a variety of reasons - mostly boredom. That and I didn't have time to spend the money.
I agree that it would be nice to see the back of these job offers and they do anger me from time to time. We're going through difficult times, with the availability of free "machine translations" making people think that translators are no more than copy typists - text goes in the eye comes out through the fingers in another language. But there is work out there for good translators and the more we excel, the more people will come to understand that translation is a skilled job requiring skilled translators.
Heh. I recently quoted against someone locally for the translation of some short stories. It was a non-profit excercise, so I quoted about 0.06 euros per word. A local "translator" (estate agent, gestor etc - you get my drift) quoted about half that. Even he was too pricey for the girl who penned the stories. I spoke to him after. He said he'd intended feeding it all through google and just checking it for obvious grammatical errors.
Don't give up without a very big struggle, Paul!
Sheila
Thanks for the encouragement.
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Paul Carmichael Spain Local time: 22:31 Member (2011) Spanish to English + ...
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It's a thought
Jan 27
Sigrid Andersen wrote:
Hi Paul,
first of all, a heads up....yeps it certainly is not easy! BUT....i wouldnt give up tht easy...what about stopping to work for agencies and go for private customers instead...yes it´s a lot of work to get those on bord, you need to start out with phonecalls, meetings, buisness dinners etc, but you say you worked in IT as well, so you will have some good vocabulary in stock there. You could contact IT companies in your country and offer your services as IT translator.
It´s a different type of work and you have to work a lot more to start with, admitted, but un the long run I think this could be just the right thing for you, what do you think?
I think I'd have to improve on my Spanish translation diploma to be able to translate in reverse. I don't believe there's much demand for translating from Spanish into English in IT.
Having said that, I've seen some pretty poor EN->ES translations ( ie; the much-repeated translation of English infinitives in menus etc into Spanish imperatives ) in IT, so perhaps I could try that? Generally frowned upon in these parts, I believe.
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Dareth Pray United States Local time: 16:31 Member (2011) Arabic to English + ...
Don't Quit Just Yet!
Jan 27
Hi Paul,
Don't quit just yet! I agree it's frustrating. I've stopped responding to the jobs that are posted for quotes almost entirely. In my first month or two on ProZ, I probably bid on a dozen jobs, and didn't receive a single one. There are too many translators out there willing to work for almost nothing.
I wouldn't turn off those alerts completely though! I usually just respond to the "potential job" posts from good agencies that are expanding. I've gotten a number of clients that way, plenty of work to keep me busy, from reputable businesses that pay well. It takes a little bit of time to get in with a number of companies and get through their screening process, but it really is worth it. My other work comes from direct clients as well as companies that found me through the ProZ directory, so it might be worth building your ProZ profile up too.
Try not to be too harsh on some of the job posters. Sometimes the jobs are posted by individuals who really don't know anything about the translation industry. They don't know what reasonable rates look like, and they don't know how to evaluate translators so they end up with a good product. I recently got into a conversation with an Italian professor who was looking to have one of his articles translated into English. The pay he was offering was maybe a quarter, or less, of the standard market rates for the pair. When I pointed out how much is usually charged per word for translation, and how much his job would generally cost, he was genuinely embarrassed. He just didn't have any experience with translators. And I think that is the case with some of the ProZ job posts.
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Tomás Cano Binder, CT Spain Local time: 22:31 Member (2005) English to Spanish + ...
Clearly targetting the wrong market
Jan 27
It has been said about a hundred times here: do not only rely on Proz.com's job offers for a successful career/business.
Personally I also see it as a business: in any business, you need to find out where you want to be, what you need to get there, and how to find the people who will give you their money in exchange of your work. To me, it looks like you could be targeting a completely wrong market. Portal offers are not a 10% of the work that is out there. Agencies contact you frequently if you are interesting enough for them and in many cases they are willing to pay a good rate in exchange for a good quality and fast response. Once you have serve them well half a dozen times... they keep coming for more if you keep serving them well, and none of the jobs they hire you for gets ever published in a portal.
If your decision is a firm one, I would not blame you given the current market situation, but to me it is quite clear that you need to reassess the situation.
One fact to consider is that IT translation is virtually dead: most IT companies pay nuts and get monkeys, but they don't seem to care. If there are other related areas of human activity you enjoy dealing with (be it electronics, PLCs, automated storage houses, or industrial control systems), you could clearly try to redirect your knowledge, CV, and profiles in that direction. I talk from experience: I used to be a software developer a very very long time ago!
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neilmac Spain Local time: 22:31 Member (2007) Spanish to English + ...
Don't give up the ghost
Jan 27
Sheila Wilson wrote:
But what makes you think that the majority of us here and elsewhere in the world of translation accept these jobs?
... it would be nice to see the back of these job offers and they do anger me from time to time. We're going through difficult times, with the availability of free "machine translations" making people think ...
I'm with Sheila, you need to be patient and sort out the wheat from the chaff. I signed up to proz not to seek work, but mainly for the kudoz feature, to be able to consult/brainstorm terms and to keep in touch with fellow translators. It also seemed like the right thing to do, to "look the part", whatever that is supposed to be.
In the 5 years or so I've been on proz I think I've had one or two jobs that were OK, and I didn't bid for any of them, as the clients approached me directly. Most of the agencies or individuals posting offers of work here are doing so on spec, are too (expletive deleted) demanding, as in the case you mention, or are simply parasitic slave drivers, usually best avoided IMO.
In addition to soliciting direct clients yourself, you might try sending your CV to some of the more reputable agencies based in your local/regional/national area - for example Vaughan in Madrid are quite good at keeping in touch once they have your details. My advice is not to throw in the towel just yet
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Rachel Fell United Kingdom Local time: 21:31 Member (2005) French to English + ...
Hang on
Jan 27
Paul Carmichael wrote:
But the job adverts on here are proclaimed to be one of the big advantages of subscribing.
Are they?!
It is sad to see these jobs advertised so widely, but you really do need to ignore them and find yourself some decent clients who not only pay decent rates but also have some respect for their business partners.
I agree
I am thinking of unsubscribing from the job ad thing, because it just clogs up my inbox.
I would if I were you!
Don't give up without a very big struggle, Paul!
Sheila
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Christine Andersen Denmark Local time: 22:31 Member (2003) Danish to English + ...
Offer quality where there is less competition
Jan 27
Since I joined the site in 2003, you could count on one hand the number of jobs I have actually got by bidding for them here.
On the other hand, many good clients have found me, and that is really one of the benefits. As Tomás says, they come back for more, and no one else ever sees those jobs...
I HAVE also seen jobs posted after I have regretfully turned them down for lack of time - interesting, well-paid jobs - but they are often closed almost before you can type your bid!
I believe what you need to improve is your SEO.
Add a good description of yourself to your profile and a CV that shows your expertise. Fill in plenty of relevant keywords in that boring-looking field at the bottom of your profile - the things you really can offer to good clients, so that they can find you by googling.
If you are bored with IT, branch out - some hobbies could be lucrative markets for translation, I imagine. You have to acquire a thorough knowledge of the jargon and terminology of course, but that is a pleasure if you are really interested.
Many translation jobs call more for a good, sensitive and intelligent command of the language than top professional expertise in the subject area. Where the target reader is the 'general public', not the professionals, you can read up on the subject and take it from there.
Make yourself visible through the forums and possibly KudoZ. Offering help, if you can, on the technical forums will endear you to colleagues, who may pass on jobs they cannot take on themselves. KudoZ is more competitive in your language pairs than others, but even if you don't always win points, well-thought-out answers will attract the attention of the right people.
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Sheila Wilson Spain Local time: 21:31 Member (2007) English + ...
Some jobs are worth going for
Jan 27
Paul Carmichael wrote:
Sheila Wilson wrote:
The reason they are so visible is because these agencies are finding it almost impossible to find reliable translators (not surprisingly!). They might find someone today who is desperate, but that person may well do an awful job and not be a good bet for tomorrow's job. If today's person IS good, they will hopefully come to their senses when they get more and more work for stupidly-low rates, and start casting around for better clients. The "problem", if you look at it just from this one angle, is that the good clients' jobs aren't very visible on platforms like this. It maybe looks as though all members of ProZ.com must be accepting the stupidly low rates offered in job postings. It simply isn't true! The truth is that the best jobs are never posted. When good clients lose a trusted translator or need extra hands, they consult the directory and send a private job posting to their own list of chosen candidates. Other jobs are filled by word of mouth, through client and peer recommendations.
The scary thing is though, by the time I get to see the invitation to tender, they have already received lots of quotes. Do people automate this?
I can't be sure what is being sent to these posters. In some cases, they are bound to be genuine responses from people desperate to get some work and/or prepared to produce thousands of words per hour by using a machine translation program. But some (many?) will not be quotes at all: a lot of people become exasperated and take time out to tell these agencies what they think of their offers. I can't imagine it's better use of your time than marketing your services to better clients, but it's good to let off steam once in a while (as you know, Paul!)
Also, don't forget that it's only members who can choose to see the rates being offered. Many of the quotes will be from registered users who are simply quoting their normal rates in the hope that they will be accepted.
It is sad to see these jobs advertised so widely, but you really do need to ignore them and find yourself some decent clients who not only pay decent rates but also have some respect for their business partners.
I am thinking of unsubscribing from the job ad thing, because it just clogs up my inbox.
It's one solution, I suppose. Mind you, I once quoted for a big job (on another site) and sent their small sample with my quote. They came back to say that my quote was twice their budget but my sample was the only acceptable one received, in fact many had been downright rubbish. We negotiated a discount in my rate in return for them doing the final proofreading (they were English-speaking French direct clients). So, they posted with a budget of 0.05, I reduced my rate from 0.10 to 0.09 and everyone was happy. This particular client simply needed educating. Worth thinking about.
I agree that it would be nice to see the back of these job offers and they do anger me from time to time. We're going through difficult times, with the availability of free "machine translations" making people think that translators are no more than copy typists - text goes in the eye comes out through the fingers in another language. But there is work out there for good translators and the more we excel, the more people will come to understand that translation is a skilled job requiring skilled translators.
Heh. I recently quoted against someone locally for the translation of some short stories. It was a non-profit excercise, so I quoted about 0.06 euros per word. A local "translator" (estate agent, gestor etc - you get my drift) quoted about half that. Even he was too pricey for the girl who penned the stories. I spoke to him after. He said he'd intended feeding it all through google and just checking it for obvious grammatical errors.
Ah well! Just goes to show you can't educate all of the people all of the time!
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Paul Carmichael Spain Local time: 22:31 Member (2011) Spanish to English + ...
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Thanks all
Jan 27
I'll hang around a while longer in case I get head-hunted
Luckily I'm not in any great rush.
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Eleftherios Kritikakis United States Local time: 15:31 Member (2003) Greek to English + ...
A strange "career"
Jan 27
a) It's not a career. Your basic job description remains the same. Your name appears nowhere. If they change the project managers, nobody knows you, you are a name in a database.
b) It's not a traditional business either, you build no equity. You can't sell this business to anyone else - it doesn't worth a penny. Not even your translation memories anymore - they are all online.
c) It's not typical employment either - you don't get a bonus or any benefits.
So, what is it?
It's "anonymous hired labor" - you are a contractor. You are hired in the beginning of the project, you arrive with a mask on your face (it's an "anonymous" industry for the people who actually do the job), and then you are fired at the end of the project. If your job was good, the agency gets the credit. If your job was bad, you get the complaints and the agency tells the client "sorry, the translator was bad, we'll pick another one".
Have you seen the farm hands lined up on the street waiting for a truck to pick them up, to collect the oranges, and then they send them back home until they need them again? That's what we are.
You left IT for this? Wow.
Of course there are some of us who still make money in this field - but we also have no life and spend all time of work alone, and under the time pressure of managers who are also pressured by clients who believe that we are robots.
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