Samuel Murray Netherlands Local time: 22:33 Member (2006) English to Afrikaans + ...
Disagree with Nicole
Feb 3
Nicole Schnell wrote:
Any contractor, repair man or computer maintenance guy will invoice the time for their commute/travel time on top of the services provided and at their full hourly rate.
I'm not sure if this is necessarily true, though. Yes, the workman has to be compensated for the time spent travelling, but travelling is not skilled labour. It would not be unfair towards the worker to pay less for travelling than for doing skilled labour (just as there is nothing unfair about charging a higher per-hour fee for certain types of jobs). The important thing is that the worker is able to determine whether going to that job is worth his while.
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Nicole Schnell United States Local time: 13:33 Member English to German + ...
Sorry, Samuel. No.
Feb 3
Samuel Murray wrote:
I'm not sure if this is necessarily true, though. Yes, the workman has to be compensated for the time spent travelling, but travelling is not skilled labour. It would not be unfair towards the worker to pay less for travelling than for doing skilled labour (just as there is nothing unfair about charging a higher per-hour fee for certain types of jobs). The important thing is that the worker is able to determine whether going to that job is worth his while.
Any contractor will charge by the hour and for their time. Plus parts. The time they spend in their cars is just as valuable to them as the time they spend on your heating system or your computer because they could just as well work on other, paid stuff during this time.
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Gad Kohenov Israel Local time: 23:33 Member (2006) English to Hebrew + ...
Eleftherios Kritikakis
Feb 3
You are right! Most translators have no clue about business administration. They don't realize that as freelancers in a global world they are not "artists" any more.
Clients treat us as "upgraded typists" and you agree to that?
You just have to do what a colleague of mine does: if his quote is not accepted he waits for the next prospective client. You need to be patient. Don't agree to work for "Very best prices" (used to be "best prices"). When us see this expression send them to look for a patsy somewhere else!
Being indivdualistic as in the past, when I started to work is not necessary any more. A translator is not isolated as he was in the past. With the internet we can have daily contact with each other (Skype etc.). The other day the phone company tried to sell me a long distance calls package. I told them to wake up. "Skype is free- take a hike!".
The price of everything goes up. Here in Israel electricity, which is most of my expenses, has gone up by dozens of percents and is still going to go up. At the same time the pressure to do translations for a lower price ("recession?" is increasing. Caving in is the worse thing to do. It's like shooting yourself in the leg.
The real trouble are those translators who agree with you but then go and accept the low rates because they would do anything to get the job in your place.
The economic recession is going to last about 10 years (2008-2018) and prices are going to go up. So should the prices of translations. Those of us who can't take the heat will have to get out of the kitchen!
Maybe a world translators' strike is the only solution. One week like housewives do in the USA and the entire industry will rely on amateurs only. Talking is not going to help here. Tough times demand tough measures!
G.K.
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Nicole Schnell United States Local time: 13:33 Member English to German + ...
Addendum for Samuel
Feb 3
Samuel Murray wrote:
I'm not sure if this is necessarily true, though. Yes, the workman has to be compensated for the time spent travelling, but travelling is not skilled labour. It would not be unfair towards the worker to pay less for travelling than for doing skilled labour (just as there is nothing unfair about charging a higher per-hour fee for certain types of jobs).
Please don't forget that we are not employees.
Example: At the last employer I worked for in Germany, we had to fill out time sheets. For the accounting department we would state what type of work we did for which client: project management, creation, copywriting, layout, production, presentation, travel, etc. Each type of work had its set hourly rate to be invoiced to the client and was based on the employees salary. Each hour was charged in serious 3-digit rates (note: Germany!), even if I had my feet on my desk, smoking a cigarette. I would write up those hours as project management.
So, the "skilled" / "unskilled" scheme certainly makes sense - but only when we are talking about salaried employees.
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Speaking from my own experience, interpreters usually charge per day (sometimes, rarely and only for good clients, they will offer a 1/2 day rate, especially for "local" jobs). And that is it. We also factor travel time into the calculation of the number of days to be billed to the client. The understanding is that if you spend one day each way travelling and a day on the spot working, all 3 days count because you can't be doing anything else at the same time. You may however decide to negotiate with the client if he isn't happy but it is your choice as an interpreter.
The other factor is travel expenses. They should be paid either on a per diem basis (negotiable) or refunded against invoices. Naturally a fair interpreter will not stay in the very best hotel and travel systematically 1st class, that should go without saying. But the other extreme is also not on.
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Eleftherios Kritikakis United States Local time: 15:33 Member (2003) Greek to English + ...
Skilled?
Feb 4
Samuel Murray wrote:
Nicole Schnell wrote:
Any contractor, repair man or computer maintenance guy will invoice the time for their commute/travel time on top of the services provided and at their full hourly rate.
I'm not sure if this is necessarily true, though. Yes, the workman has to be compensated for the time spent travelling, but travelling is not skilled labour. It would not be unfair towards the worker to pay less for travelling than for doing skilled labour (just as there is nothing unfair about charging a higher per-hour fee for certain types of jobs). The important thing is that the worker is able to determine whether going to that job is worth his while.
- Next time I take a taxi, I'll tell the driver "you are not skilled - everyone can drive. I'll pay you only gasoline and maintenance cost per mile"
- I will also propose countries to fire 80% of the public employees. Everyone knows they possess no special skills.
- I will also do a wordcount of the lawyer's work. I will separate the words that we all use as "non-skilled labor" and pay him full price only for the fancy legal concepts ("skilled work"). The other words in his work that are common (fuzzies and 100% matches) should go unpaid.
- Try selling things like that to any professional who has to travel more than 30 minutes to get compensated "minimum interpreting fee". From plumbers and locksmith to lawyers or anyone else.
In Chicago my solution was always to charge a 3 hour minimum. That included driving time. So basically the deal was and is from 3 hours and up.
I have absolutely no idea how most of you people survive (considering the things I read in these forums), but my experience says "second job" and/or "that's only to support the spouse's income" and/or "parents pay the rent" and/or "we eat only beans and never turn the heat on".
This job has become a suicide field. You are all suicidal. You are analyzing words for their "meaning" (as linguists that you are), and you are applying this concept to your fees.
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Nicole Schnell United States Local time: 13:33 Member English to German + ...
Worth while
Feb 4
Samuel Murray wrote:
The important thing is that the worker is able to determine whether going to that job is worth his while.
Then I can only hope that next time you need a locksmith or your heating doesn't work on a cold day, the worker will not consider your request "not worth while" because it takes half an hour to get to your address during rush hour.
Edited for typo
[Edited at 2012-02-04 01:37 GMT]
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Eleftherios Kritikakis United States Local time: 15:33 Member (2003) Greek to English + ...
Artists? Wow!
Feb 4
Gad Kohenov wrote:
You are right! Most translators have no clue about business administration. They don't realize that as freelancers in a global world they are not "artists" any more.
G.K.
Artists? Just when were they ever "artists"? I have been to many museums, never saw a "Translations Exhibit".
We are not in the arts. We are in the crafts. We are tradesmen.
I'm not a member of the middle class so I don't need to be politically correct, so I'll say it: I don't smell testosterone in this industry, and in my exprerience this is what drives ambition. By "testosterone" I mean real drive, ambition. Translators are push-overs. When I was in the financial field I was facing real competition in at least half the cases. The only competition in the translation field is a couple of malicious editors trying to steal a couple of jobs while hiding behind the PM's skirt like little kids ("anonimity"), and a couple of translators who pay to work (extremely low fees, they do survive for a couple of months, seen the same movie countless times).
Listen to what this other guy in here does: he uses word analysis and "pop-legalities" (the definition of "skilled labour" and whether this or that applies). Without even considering the most expensive thing in our industry: Opportunity Cost. While I'm driving to your location Mr. Client, I lose other jobs because it's time away from my official location and office. That is why almost all professionals charge travelling time, preparation time, drafting time, etc etc. My divorce lawyer was charging full hour ($350) for every call that lasted more than 20 minutes (that was 7 years ago). My accountant gets $280 an hour and he adds email time and phone time. I am afraid to call him... for sure I keep it short and sweet.
This industry is Disneyland but without good taste in costumes, and without the entertainment. It's a boring job. The compensation for all this (the "consideration", the "exchange"), used to be a good income. That's the only reward. But now we' re even trying to play with semantics to deprive ourselves of what others consider normal.
And it's only going to get worse. Wait to see what happens when translators discover that they can live only on bean soup. They will lower their rates, voluntarily, and the bean soup consumption will also provide for central heat.
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Germaine Canada Local time: 16:33 Member (2005) English to French + ...
Two sides of the medal
Feb 4
Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
Reading through years of ProZ forums, I nearly assumed that nobody could ever get more than USD 0.03/per word.
Actually, USD 0.03 was the lowest offer I ever received (and turned down). But, on the other hand, I recently offered to do proofreading/editing for free, and that offer was also turned down...
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