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Professional and unprofessional business practice the bigger picture
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
Arabic & More
Arabic & More  Identity Verified
Jordan
Arabic to English
+ ...
Why not try? Jan 27, 2014

Although I understand the economics of how people decide their rates in various countries, I also see many translators undervaluing themselves without good reason. If you are always charging 4 cents per word, you might not ever realize that many companies would be more than happy to retain your services at much higher rates. Why not at least try to ask for higher rates whenever you enter into negotiations with a new client? Presumably you already have sufficient work at 4 cents per word, so it w... See more
Although I understand the economics of how people decide their rates in various countries, I also see many translators undervaluing themselves without good reason. If you are always charging 4 cents per word, you might not ever realize that many companies would be more than happy to retain your services at much higher rates. Why not at least try to ask for higher rates whenever you enter into negotiations with a new client? Presumably you already have sufficient work at 4 cents per word, so it will not hurt you to ask for more with new clients. If they say yes, great. If not, then you still have your other work to keep you busy. Next time, why not ask for 10, 12, 15, or even 20 to 25 cents per word?

Regarding ex-pats, the expenses of ex-pats are usually much higher than those of the local population. For one, they tend to send their children to private schools, and they are usually not covered by the local government health insurance. They also have to figure in trips to visit their home countries and other things that a local resident may not have the need for. You can't just look at the cheaper rents and think that life in another country is totally worry-free or does not involve extra expense.
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Orrin Cummins
Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 10:13
Japanese to English
+ ...
A new job offer Jan 27, 2014

Got an email yesterday from a Japanese translation agency that I've worked for a bit in the past about an enticing new job offer. J->E, a bit over 133,000 characters of some rather technical material - around $1100. I'll let you do the math.

 
Shai Navé
Shai Navé  Identity Verified
Israel
Local time: 04:13
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Bargaining against ourselves Jan 29, 2014

One thing that professional translators (and professional is not just someone who happens to be able to make money of out of something) should stop doing is bargaining against themselves, and getting away from what seems to be their collective Stockholm Syndrome.

Bernhard has raised an important topic and provided a good and solid advice on the subject. It is (yet again) disappointing to see the superficial level of discussion that these kind of topics seem to get. Instead of talkin
... See more
One thing that professional translators (and professional is not just someone who happens to be able to make money of out of something) should stop doing is bargaining against themselves, and getting away from what seems to be their collective Stockholm Syndrome.

Bernhard has raised an important topic and provided a good and solid advice on the subject. It is (yet again) disappointing to see the superficial level of discussion that these kind of topics seem to get. Instead of talking about good business practices, exchange of information, and discussing what we can do to better ourselves and the profile of our profession, people tend to pick a side (usually determined by their current circumstances) and defend it as if this is some kind of competition that they need to win by convincing others that they are right. There is no clear-cut right or wrong numeric answer because this is a more complex issue than that, and people have different perspectives and that's fine; but good business practices and the perception about one's profession are global.

Justifying and even supporting the abuse, unethical conduct, and unprofessionalism, as well as presenting a self-defeating stance towards a better business culture out of the common excuse "this is what the market can/will bear" will surely not help anyone but the abusers.

I suggest translators to take a minute to look at things outside of ProZ's and similar avenues narrow prism, you might be surprised.



[Edited at 2014-01-29 11:56 GMT]
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Mark Benson (X)
Mark Benson (X)  Identity Verified

English to Swedish
+ ...
Sorry if I talked too much Jan 29, 2014

Shai Nave wrote:

One thing that professional translators (and professional is not just someone who happens to be able to make money of out of something) should stop doing is bargaining against themselves, and getting away from what seems to be their collective Stockholm Syndrome.

Bernhard has raised an important topic and provided a good and solid advice on the subject. It is (yet again) disappointing to see the superficial level of discussion that these kind of topics seem to get. Instead of talking about good business practices, exchange of information, and discussing what we can do to better ourselves and the profile of our profession, people tend to pick a side (usually determined by their current circumstances) and defend it as if this is some kind of competition that they need to win by convincing others that they are right. There is no clear-cut right or wrong numeric answer because this is a more complex issue than that, and people have different perspectives and that's fine; but good business practices and the perception about one's profession are global.

Justifying and even supporting the abuse, unethical conduct, and unprofessionalism, as well as presenting a self-defeating stance towards a better business culture out of the common excuse "this is what the market can/will bear" will surely not help anyone but the abusers.

I suggest translators to take a minute to look at things outside of ProZ's and similar avenues narrow prism, you might be surprised.



[Edited at 2014-01-29 11:56 GMT]


I just want to say that a lot of the content on the Forum has a 'temporal side' if I can call it that. Some topics come into existence and cease to exist mostly based on the desire of the translators to talk about it at any given time.

The important matters live on in our minds and are reflected on. Then these reflections turn into new topics in the future. Or so I wish to believe.

Please also remember that we can't discuss politics. This might be what this topic is lacking, but it's strictly forbidden on-board nonetheless!

Since I fundamentally don't care what other people have and make, it might appear as a mistake of me to get involved here. And that's what I'm posting to say, more than anything else.

[Edited at 2014-01-29 13:09 GMT]


 
Stephen Emm
Stephen Emm  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:13
French to English
+ ...
We live in a globalised world Jan 29, 2014

Although I would not accept what I consider to be low prices for any job and always try and uphold standards in the translation industry, I do not think it is my place to dictate to translators in poorer countries what they should be charging for a translation.
As Lincoln illustrated very well, $0.04 per source word equates to a pretty good salary in plenty of countries, so who I am to tell them not to work for this rate?

All we can do as professional translators in Western Eu
... See more
Although I would not accept what I consider to be low prices for any job and always try and uphold standards in the translation industry, I do not think it is my place to dictate to translators in poorer countries what they should be charging for a translation.
As Lincoln illustrated very well, $0.04 per source word equates to a pretty good salary in plenty of countries, so who I am to tell them not to work for this rate?

All we can do as professional translators in Western Europe/North America is to reject low paying jobs and continue to promote the industry and high standards in our OWN countries.


I don't think comparing our profession to doctors, lawyers, etc. serves much of a purpose either. You do not really even need a qualification to be translator, while doctors, lawyers, vets, etc. HAVE to have a degree to practise their profession. Although many translators are degree educated, you do not have to have any specific qualifications to translate and offer your services.

In the UK, perceptions are changing about translation, and it is becoming more professionalised, it is up to us demonstrate how important it is in modern life and business.
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Anne Seerup
Anne Seerup
Ireland
Local time: 01:13
English to Danish
+ ...
The value of translators Jan 29, 2014

Christine Andersen wrote:



We need to move up among the copywriters and reporters, the lawyers, academics and business executives who produce the texts we translate, or the ambassadors and politicians who negotiate international policies...

Because that is where we belong.
We also have to stop hiding behind our monitors in the back office, and make people understand what we do.

Language is a bit like the glass in a window - nobody notices it unless it is dirty or broken. And window glass, if anyone thinks about it at all, is cheap...
Everyone can speak, and many people round the world can speak two or more languages, so what is the big deal with translators?



Excellently written! I reckon it is all about value and making people value what we do, because people are prepared to pay for what they value.
Then I wonder why this skill is not being valued enough? Has it to do with Google? Has it to do with slave workers in the third world working for peanuts?
No, I actually don't think it has.
I have been examining my own habits of thinking. And I think is really that we don't value ourselves enough and that somehow shines through in all our communication, the jobs we accept anyway, the way we compromise, make concessions, maybe do little favours, forget to charge for an extra 20 minutes, because it doesn't hurt this once and we can always do better next time somewhere out in the future that never comes. (now, there is probably someone reading this and disagreeing, because they always value what they do and do fantastically well as a translator - that is great continue that way).

It is January and the time for replacing old habits and finding new and better ways. I am currently reading something about B2B copywriting, and I for one am seriously struggling with the idea of selling my services in a business-like manner, and it is making me having a serious think about my own unique selling point. Technically, it should be possible to make a decent and well above average income out of this, and it is. Yet, when I prospect certain agencies I quite often get told: "oh, but our other translators generally only charge (insert X amount of peanuts)". So there clearly are people out there who value their skills even less, or they really are monkeys in cages. It then becomes a vicious circle of feeling undervalued and sub-communicating less value to the rest of world. Sometimes it even spreads like a virus to those who used to feel valued.

An experienced translator does have a valuable skillset, and it has nothing whatsoever to with external proof such as degrees, diplomas, membership of associations etc. (although those are fine too). It has more to do with neural connections. Why shouldn't we feel proud of having a brain full of phrases and completely obscure terminology that just pop up when we need them? A friend was asking me to research something that he was unable to find any information about, and was completely baffled how quickly I returned with information from credible sources. You probably know this: You have a phrase that you don't quite know how to translate, so you make a note of it or even send a query, and leave it for a while to soak, yet in roundabout ways you figure it out. That is really is some skill. And it usually happens when you feel valued and enjoy the job. So we need to feel valued to proper work and learn to communicate that value. Of course we also have to deliver on our promise.




[Edited at 2014-01-29 22:13 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-01-30 09:59 GMT]


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 01:13
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Follow-up question called for Jan 29, 2014

Anne Seerup wrote:
when I prospect certain agencies I quite often get told: "oh, but our other translators generally only charge (insert X amount of peanuts)".

Have you tried: "How much in total do you pay your proofreaders? I can reduce that expense for you."


 
Anne Seerup
Anne Seerup
Ireland
Local time: 01:13
English to Danish
+ ...
That is a great one :-) Jan 29, 2014

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Anne Seerup wrote:
when I prospect certain agencies I quite often get told: "oh, but our other translators generally only charge (insert X amount of peanuts)".

Have you tried: "How much in total do you pay your proofreaders? I can reduce that expense for you."



Thank you, I will make a note of that


 
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