| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40] > | What is your definition of “native speaker” and why does it matter to you to have a definition? Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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| MS--in the humanities? | Oct 16, 2014 |
jyuan_us wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Michele Fauble wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Michele Fauble wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... native describes a way of acquiring a language, not how proficient one is. Either you acquired it like a native speaker or not. Some might say, "near-native" goes more in the direction of how well one speaks it, but apples and oranges, you know.
Are you saying that native language has no relationship to proficiency? I have seen too many people in my native language (Chinese) write very poorly in Chinese. The vast majority of native speakers throughout the history of the human species have been illiterate. Good writing, spelling and punctuation are learned at school and are not relevant to native speaker status. I was not talking about illiterate people. I think about 50% of the B.A. holders can barely write in their native language to a quality that require no further editing in an employment setting. [Edited at 2014-10-16 06:29 GMT] The people with BAs, not to mention MAs, in the humanities can usually write really well because essay writing is required, in most of the courses. (Usually 2-4 essays per course) [Edited at 2014-10-16 11:05 GMT] When I studied for my MS, I was a TA, having the opportunity of grading papers for undergraduate students in humanities majors. In a class of 20 students, typically you would find 2 or 3 student writing excellently, another 2 or 3 students writing very poorly. Most of the students were in between. [Edited at 2014-10-16 12:39 GMT]
What type of humanities?
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer 
United States
Local time: 06:42
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
There are two types of schooling in India:...
Thanks for all the information!
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Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Robin Levey wrote:
Definition: Anyone who implies, suggests, says, claims or purports - honestly, misguidedly, deceitfully or otherwise - to be such; often in the belief that self-promotion using the expression “native speaker of xyz” will enhance the said person’s personal, professional and/or business interests.
Why is that definition important to me? Because it serves as a constant reminder that “language nativeness” is utterly worthless as a gauge of translation proficiency.
All that aside, how nice it is to see so many colleagues, friends – and a few newcomers – here for the latest proz.com “native language” shindig!
xxxMediaMatrix
In short: anyone who says he/she is a native speaker. Would you consider this variation on your theme (call me a dreamer): Definition: Anyone who implies, suggests, says, claims or purports - honestly - to be such because [definition here]; often in the belief that using the expression “native speaker of xyz” describes one important characteristic of a translator and thus ultimately enhances said person’s personal, professional and/or business interests.
Yes, you most surely are a dreamer if you envisage that I might agree with your version.
In the first place (as you pointed out yourself) your version is not a “definition” since - by definition - a definition must be deterministic. Your version fails that test because it contains a “because” clause which leads you to define something in terms of ... oops! ... itself.
Secondly, a definition must be universally applicable, at least within a determined context. You asked us for our definition; you didn’t ask us to provide a definition which might serve your specific purposes. My definition exists to serve my purpose and, even then, solely within the confines of my personal, professional and business context. It is not designed to serve your purposes (except to the extent that your's and mine might overlap), nor is it necessarily valid in anyone else’s context either.
You seek to strip my definition of the very essence which allows it to serve my purpose, which I explained in my answer to your second question. And at the same time you have added a phrase about nativeness being an “... important characteristic of a translator ...” which, whether true or not, has no place in a universal and deterministic definition of “native speaker”. In paraphrasing, abridging, distorting, supplementing or otherwise messing around with my definition you might end up with a definition which better suits your purposes, but you cannot expect it still to suit mine.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: hiding blank post, per request. |
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| If a part of a definition is illegal, | Oct 16, 2014 |
the rest of the definition is illegal as well. Since any categorization based on ethnic origin or language is illegal in the United Sates, and many other counties, if you looked closer at the law, I do not even treat the"definition' part of this thread seriously. I just enjoy the discussion.
It is like trying to define the best worker for a small office"not too tall, not too heavy, a non- smoker, without children, who loves to be on time and never takes sick leaves. Also, who think... See more the rest of the definition is illegal as well. Since any categorization based on ethnic origin or language is illegal in the United Sates, and many other counties, if you looked closer at the law, I do not even treat the"definition' part of this thread seriously. I just enjoy the discussion.
It is like trying to define the best worker for a small office"not too tall, not too heavy, a non- smoker, without children, who loves to be on time and never takes sick leaves. Also, who thinks that modesty with regard to pay demands is a virtue since money is the source of evil, and can eventually spoil a person". Would that be legal?
[Edited at 2014-10-16 17:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 06:42
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| The name of degrees cannot be understood literally | Oct 16, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote: jyuan_us wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Michele Fauble wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Michele Fauble wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... native describes a way of acquiring a language, not how proficient one is. Either you acquired it like a native speaker or not. Some might say, "near-native" goes more in the direction of how well one speaks it, but apples and oranges, you know.
Are you saying that native language has no relationship to proficiency? I have seen too many people in my native language (Chinese) write very poorly in Chinese. The vast majority of native speakers throughout the history of the human species have been illiterate. Good writing, spelling and punctuation are learned at school and are not relevant to native speaker status. I was not talking about illiterate people. I think about 50% of the B.A. holders can barely write in their native language to a quality that require no further editing in an employment setting. [Edited at 2014-10-16 06:29 GMT] The people with BAs, not to mention MAs, in the humanities can usually write really well because essay writing is required, in most of the courses. (Usually 2-4 essays per course) [Edited at 2014-10-16 11:05 GMT] When I studied for my MS, I was a TA, having the opportunity of grading papers for undergraduate students in humanities majors. In a class of 20 students, typically you would find 2 or 3 student writing excellently, another 2 or 3 students writing very poorly. Most of the students were in between. [Edited at 2014-10-16 12:39 GMT] What type of humanities?
Someone majoring in Math can be granted a BS degree, not BA. And also students take course across campus, NOT ONLY from their own departments. And a TA can be assigned to any professor, NOT ONLY those in their own departments.
Are you in the US?
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 06:42
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I studied for my MS degree | Oct 16, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote: jyuan_us wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Michele Fauble wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Michele Fauble wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... native describes a way of acquiring a language, not how proficient one is. Either you acquired it like a native speaker or not. Some might say, "near-native" goes more in the direction of how well one speaks it, but apples and oranges, you know.
Are you saying that native language has no relationship to proficiency? I have seen too many people in my native language (Chinese) write very poorly in Chinese. The vast majority of native speakers throughout the history of the human species have been illiterate. Good writing, spelling and punctuation are learned at school and are not relevant to native speaker status. I was not talking about illiterate people. I think about 50% of the B.A. holders can barely write in their native language to a quality that require no further editing in an employment setting. [Edited at 2014-10-16 06:29 GMT] The people with BAs, not to mention MAs, in the humanities can usually write really well because essay writing is required, in most of the courses. (Usually 2-4 essays per course) [Edited at 2014-10-16 11:05 GMT] When I studied for my MS, I was a TA, having the opportunity of grading papers for undergraduate students in humanities majors. In a class of 20 students, typically you would find 2 or 3 student writing excellently, another 2 or 3 students writing very poorly. Most of the students were in between. [Edited at 2014-10-16 12:39 GMT] What type of humanities?
and I graded papers for a course that was a humanities course. What is wrong with that?
| | | | | Yes, definitely. | Oct 16, 2014 |
jyuan_us wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... native describes a way of acquiring a language, not how proficient one is. Either you acquired it like a native speaker or not. Some might say, "near-native" goes more in the direction of how well one speaks it, but apples and oranges, you know.
Are you saying that native language has no relationship to proficiency? I have seen too many people in my native language (Chinese) write very poorly in Chinese.
but math is not a humanity. I meant literature, history or philosophy students.
[Edited at 2014-10-16 17:33 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-10-16 19:50 GMT]
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jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 06:42
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Of course not. | Oct 16, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote:
but math is not a humanity. I meant literature, history or philosophy students.
[Edited at 2014-10-16 17:33 GMT]
I never said Math is a humanity. All I meant was that you really cannot tell what they study only by looking at if their degree is a BA or BS. It is all interdisciplinary nowadays.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 16:12
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | On native errors and non-native errors | Oct 16, 2014 |
I was reading the side discussion here on native errors and non-native errors.
It almost seemed to me that it was being implied that clients and outsourcers would be immensely pleased to have their translated documents bristling with native errors, but would be mighty miffed if there were non-native errors in it!
I could even imagine a scene where a triumphant PO of an agency is brandishing a translated document that is marked all over in red, and saying, "There, not a ... See more I was reading the side discussion here on native errors and non-native errors.
It almost seemed to me that it was being implied that clients and outsourcers would be immensely pleased to have their translated documents bristling with native errors, but would be mighty miffed if there were non-native errors in it!
I could even imagine a scene where a triumphant PO of an agency is brandishing a translated document that is marked all over in red, and saying, "There, not a single non-native error in the whole document. It is authentically translated by a native!"
The truth of course is, and which perhaps needs no stating, that all types of errors need to be rectified, and all translators, native or non-native, do make errors.
The solution is to run all translations through a rigorous editing/proofing which would weed out both native and non-native errors.
Clients would want to avoid this necessary step, for cost or time reasons, and they perhaps would like the consolation of the belief that natives-never-err to justify their penny-pinching practices.
But I don't think this is in the overall interest of our profession or of translation quality.
[Edited at 2014-10-17 08:53 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Yes, to some extent. | Oct 16, 2014 |
jyuan_us wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote:
but math is not a humanity. I meant literature, history or philosophy students.
[Edited at 2014-10-16 17:33 GMT] I never said Math is a humanity. All I meant was that you really cannot tell what they study only by looking at if their degree is a BA or BS. It is all interdisciplinary nowadays.
The people with education in the humanities and arts, especially with a high GPA are more likely to be good writers, though. There are always some exceptions everywhere.
[Edited at 2014-10-16 19:54 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 06:42
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
to everyone for your contributions. I think we have created quite a few interesting pages on the subject.
If you want to contribute something else, please do so soon. I am planning to have the thread locked sometime tomorrow, Friday.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2014-10-17 02:52 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 12:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Nothing wrong with it | Oct 17, 2014 |
jyuan_us wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote: jyuan_us wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Michele Fauble wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Michele Fauble wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...and I graded papers for a course that was a humanities course. What is wrong with that?
Nothing, but this thread clearly needs a boost, if we're going to have any chance of hitting the 100 post mark again.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 06:42
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Samuel Murray wrote:
Nothing, but this thread clearly needs a boost, if we're going to have any chance of hitting the 100 post mark again.
You could reply to my latest reply to yours.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 16:12
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | A rethink on the native language button may be called for | Oct 17, 2014 |
In the light of this long discussion, and several others preceding it, the site may perhaps be well-advised to do a rethink on the native language button, particularly its availability to outsourcers for excluding some translators from bidding.
The information may still be retained on the profile page, but the additional functionality attached to it which has been proved in this thread to be extremely discriminatory and unfair to translators, should be done away with.
T... See more In the light of this long discussion, and several others preceding it, the site may perhaps be well-advised to do a rethink on the native language button, particularly its availability to outsourcers for excluding some translators from bidding.
The information may still be retained on the profile page, but the additional functionality attached to it which has been proved in this thread to be extremely discriminatory and unfair to translators, should be done away with.
This has been a recurrent demand from the users of this site ever since the site was started and if the site authorities bring themselves to decisively address this issue, this long-winded thread might have achieved some purpose.
Also, this would put an end to any more of such discussions in the future and people would be able to concentrate on more professional issues.
[Edited at 2014-10-17 07:58 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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