| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40] > | What is your definition of “native speaker” and why does it matter to you to have a definition? Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:38
Hebrew to English
| Been there, done that | Oct 17, 2014 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
the site may perhaps be well-advised to do a rethink on the native language button, particularly its availability to outsourcers for excluding some translators from bidding
This was proposed before in the mega-thread and it was shot down there (I think even by site staff), for various reasons.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 09:08
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | So you think it serves some purpose? | Oct 17, 2014 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
the site may perhaps be well-advised to do a rethink on the native language button, particularly its availability to outsourcers for excluding some translators from bidding This was proposed before in the mega-thread and it was shot down there (I think even by site staff), for various reasons.
As far as I recall, the site had promised that it was seriously thinking on remodelling the native language feature, and we could expect some changes soon. I don't know what happened since then.
But from your comment above, you seem to be of the opinion that the native language button serves some useful purpose from the point of view of translators (not outsourcers). Would you kindly elucidate what this is, for my benefit?
| | | | | I agree. Even though I am doing something here against | Oct 17, 2014 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
In the light of this long discussion, and several others preceding it, the site may perhaps be well-advised to do a rethink on the native language button, particularly its availability to outsourcers for excluding some translators from bidding.
The information may still be retained on the profile page, but the additional functionality attached to it which has been proved in this thread to be extremely discriminatory and unfair to translators, should be done away with.
This has been a recurrent demand from the users of this site ever since the site was started and if the site authorities bring themselves to decisively address this issue, this long-winded thread might have achieved some purpose.
Also, this would put an end to any more of such discussions in the future and people would be able to concentrate on more professional issues.
[Edited at 2014-10-17 07:58 GMT]
my own interests. As I said, justice is more important than personal interests. I do not think anyone should be precluded from quoting on any job.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:38
Hebrew to English
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
But from your comment above, you seem to be of the opinion that the native language button serves some useful purpose from the point of view of translators (not outsourcers). Would you kindly elucidate what this is, for my benefit?
I'm not sure how you got that from my comment.
If I remember correctly, the site was against removing it because they didn't want to deny outsourcers the choice.
I'd have to wade through pages and pages to find the relevant posts, someone with far more time than myself is welcome to do that.
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:38
Hebrew to English
| What they did next.... | Oct 17, 2014 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
thinking on remodelling the native language feature, and we could expect some changes soon. I don't know what happened since then.
They introduced the "variants" feature.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 09:08
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | There is a slight difference, though | Oct 17, 2014 |
Sarah Elizabeth wrote:
Unsurprisingly most of the people contributing to this thread have different language combinations, different specialist fields, work in different markets and have different backgrounds. A bit like the six blind men and the elephant. Where one blind man's experience of the elephant is of the tusk, another's is of the tail. It is small wonder that they each "see" the elephant differently. It seems to me this is a little (or a lot) like what is going on here.
While the blind men of the Panchatantra story were honestly reporting their findings, the blind men here have hidden agendas and what they say and what they know are entirely different.
| | | | | I am not by what laws such sites operate but | Oct 17, 2014 |
it would be totally illegal in the US to give outsourcers such options. It is like saying that they can filter the candidates by the age, sex or even the rate they charge. I don't think that would be legal, so I think it is better that we mention that than someone else.
The outsourcer may ask anybody about the level of their X language (I guess if the applicant wants to, they may tell the outsourcer that X language has been the language that his whole family has been speaking for a... See more it would be totally illegal in the US to give outsourcers such options. It is like saying that they can filter the candidates by the age, sex or even the rate they charge. I don't think that would be legal, so I think it is better that we mention that than someone else.
The outsourcer may ask anybody about the level of their X language (I guess if the applicant wants to, they may tell the outsourcer that X language has been the language that his whole family has been speaking for at least five hundred years, but no one can ask you anything like that). They can just give you a standard test, so that the company would be able to choose the most qualified person, but I don't think the filtering is totally legit.
[Edited at 2014-10-17 09:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 05:38
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| On whether nativeness can be assessed | Oct 17, 2014 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Samuel Murray wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I believe the cultural background, years of acquiring and learning it in that language/cultural environment from childhood on constitute a unique way of acquisition that cannot be repeated later. I fully agree. And... it is one of the most obvious (and probably most common) ways of acquiring a native language. To me it's the only way so far. Anything else is IMO just a different way of learning a language later on and you can try to assess proficiency but not nativeness or first-learned language (just a tentative term).
Well, if I understand your definition correctly, nativeness can't be assessed either. (-:
Nativeness can be determined by evaluating the translator's circumstances against the definition, but that is not "assessment" in the same way that one would assess near-nativeness.
Non-natives are arguably illiterate, fluent, literate, very literate, super proficient - but you are going to need benchmarks.
Yet there is no benchmark for "native" in your definition, because nativeness in terms of your definition is not measured, but identified.
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| OT: Contractors | Oct 17, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote:
it would be totally illegal in the US to give outsourcers such options. It is like saying that they can filter the candidates by the age, sex or even the rate they charge.
I just want to say as a caveat that I have NOT read this entire thread and am not commenting on the definition of "native language" or the benefit or lack thereof of having a "native language" identifier.
I am concerned, however, that Lilian has mentioned several times that this type of screening is illegal in the U.S.
While that appears to be true for *hiring candidates for employment*, I think it's important to emphasize here that freelance translators and interpreters are NOT employees, and I do not think the U.S. judicial system views the two categories as equal.
http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/herman/reports/futurework/conference/staffing/9.7_discrimination.htm
"As with other labor standards, independent contractors generally would not be covered by anti-discrimination laws."
http://www.probonopartner.org/PBPGuide/PBPHandbook-03.htm
"Independent contractors are granted far less protection than employees, and organizations have fewer obligations and liabilities toward independent contractors than they do toward employees. For example, independent contractors are not protected by the federal anti-discrimination laws, the federal wage and hour law (the Fair Labor Standards Act or “FLSA”), or the Employee Retirement Income Security Act (“ERISA”)."
[Edited at 2014-10-17 20:24 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 05:38
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| On being stuck on the critical period hypothesis | Oct 17, 2014 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Native describes a way of acquiring a language, not how proficient one is.
Yes, I believe I understand where you're coming from. You hold to [a perhaps rather simplistic version of] the critical period hypothesis, and you need a name for the phenomenon that fits the hypothesis, and the name that you chose for it is an existing term, namely "native language".
I am not stuck on my definition if you convince me otherwise.
I'm afraid you are pretty much stuck, because you have made an arbitrary decision to equate the term "native language" to the language that is learnt during the critical period. It was not a conclusion that you drew, but instead it was a decision that you made. And the way that you justify that decision is to propose that the term "native language" has something to do with the dictionary meaning of the word "native".
So it all boils down to two things:
* what is the latest information on the critical period hypothesis?
* should the phenomenon of the critical period be termed "native language"?
==
I have an interesting book here that helped me get an objective overview of the issues involved. It is called the "Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics" (2005 edition). It has 2500 entries that cover a total of 12 000 pages. The PDF is 200 MB, by the way. I can recommend the download.
The following terms are mentioned on various places in the tome:
"critical period" - mentioned on 34 matches
"language acquisition" - mentioned on 639 pages
"native language" - mentioned on 226 pages
"native speaker" - mentioned on 185 pages
"native speakers" - mentioned on 319 pages
In addition, it has articles with the following relevant titles:
Native Speaker; Nonnative Speaker Teachers; Variation in Native Languages of North America; Variation in Nonnative Varieties of English; Assessment of First Language Proficiency; Variation in First Language Acquisition; Assessment of Second Language Proficiency; Vocabulary: Second Language; Bilingualism and Second Language Learning; Corpus Studies: Second Language; Discourse Studies: Second Language; Identity: Second Language; Language Teaching Traditions: Second Language; Learning Sign Language as a Second Language; Lingua Francas as Second Languages; Motivation and Attitudes in Second Language Learning; Pedagogical Grammars: Second Language; Second and Foreign Language Learning and Teaching; Second Language Acquisition of Phonology, Morphology, and Syntax; Second Language Acquisition: Phonology; Second Language Attrition; Second Language Listening; Second Language Reading; Second Language Speaking; Second Language Studies: Curriculum Development; Second Language Writing; Socialization: Second Language; Teacher Preparation: Second Language; Teaching Technologies: Second Language; Variation in Second Language Acquisition ... but no article with "critical period" in its title, unfortunately.
[Edited at 2014-10-17 11:19 GMT]
| | | | | Self-discrimination | Oct 17, 2014 |
Janet Rubin wrote: I am concerned, however, that Lilian has mentioned several times that this type of screening is illegal in the U.S. While that appears to be true for *hiring candidates for employment*, I think it's important to emphasize here that freelance translators and interpreters are NOT employees, and I do not think the U.S. judicial system views the two categories as equal. "As with other labor standards, independent contractors generally would not be covered by anti-discrimination laws."
Interestingly enough, some (mostly American) translation agencies emphasize their status as "woman-owned company", or "minority-owned company".
Others boast their EEO policy, and yet say they only use "native translators and proofreaders". Regardless of the definition, since it has been ascertained here that it hints some sort of discrimination, an oxymoron is implied.
I wonder if freelance translators will ever be invited to claim their "black", "Jewish", "Muslim", "Oriental", "handicapped" or any other (possibly local) minority status, which I personally would consider as a self-discrimination attempt, for better or for worse.
| | | | | Yes--it is absolutely illegal. | Oct 17, 2014 |
Janet Rubin wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote:
it would be totally illegal in the US to give outsourcers such options. It is like saying that they can filter the candidates by the age, sex or even the rate they charge. I just want to say as a caveat that I have NOT read this entire thread and am not commenting on the definition of "native language" or the benefit or lack thereof of having a "native language" identifier. I am concerned, however, that Lilian has mentioned several times that this type of screening is illegal in the U.S. While that appears to be true for *hiring candidates for employment*, I think it's important to emphasize here that freelance translators and interpreters are NOT employees, and I do not think the U.S. judicial system views the two categories as equal. http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/herman/reports/futurework/conference/staffing/9.7_discrimination.htm "As with other labor standards, independent contractors generally would not be covered by anti-discrimination laws." http://www.probonopartner.org/PBPGuide/PBPHandbook-03.htm "Independent contractors are granted far less protection than employees, and organizations have fewer obligations and liabilities toward independent contractors than they do toward employees. For example, independent contractors are not protected by the federal anti-discrimination laws, the federal wage and hour law (the Fair Labor Standards Act or “FLSA”), or the Employee Retirement Income Security Act (“ERISA”)." [Edited at 2014-10-17 11:14 GMT]
not just in relation to work--it is like 'whites only", or 'women only". Even if there are some jobs advertised in a newspaper, or on the net in a completely different field--different than yours, you can still send your resume --if you want to--even for an engineering job, even if you are a linguist, so no one should be really excluded from bidding on jobs on any site--these are not bids per se, but rather quoting, and I think that all people should be allowed to quote, if they feel that they are qualified to do the job. Of course, nothing will guarantee them that they will get the assignments, but at least they will have a chance to present their case.
You could not put an ad in any American newspaper which would include the phrase"natives only" or 'natives preferred'. (They would not accept it) This is the proof--freelancers or not. You can try--call any paper and ask them.
Independent contractors may be slightly less protected, but you still could not advertise 'I need black dancers, a female photographer, a native Italian cook for a party, etc. You would have to say: a cook familiar with the Italian cuisine, a translator fluent in Spanish, dancers with experience in African dance, or breakdance, etc.
[Edited at 2014-10-17 11:51 GMT]
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| Nativeness - can't be defined as such, so not worth asking about | Oct 17, 2014 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Yet there is no benchmark for "native" in [Bernhard's] definition, because nativeness in terms of [his] definition is not measured, but identified.
What's more, it is 'self-identified'.
Indeed, that's the big problem with Bernhard's whole approach to this topic: he hasn't got a good grasp of the definition of 'definition'. If it ain't deterministic, it ain't a definition.
Querying someone's native language (even one's own...) is much like asking "are you (or, am I) happy or sad?". The answer will depend on so many factors - both objective and subjective - that no-one - not even the answerer - can be certain of the truthfulness or otherwise of the response.
| | | | | Those who advertise 'nativeness" on any American site | Oct 17, 2014 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: Janet Rubin wrote: I am concerned, however, that Lilian has mentioned several times that this type of screening is illegal in the U.S. While that appears to be true for *hiring candidates for employment*, I think it's important to emphasize here that freelance translators and interpreters are NOT employees, and I do not think the U.S. judicial system views the two categories as equal. "As with other labor standards, independent contractors generally would not be covered by anti-discrimination laws." Interestingly enough, some (mostly American) translation agencies emphasize their status as "woman-owned company", or "minority-owned company". Others boast their EEO policy, and yet say they only use "native translators and proofreaders". Regardless of the definition, since it has been ascertained here that it hints some sort of discrimination, an oxymoron is implied. I wonder if freelance translators will ever be invited to claim their "black", "Jewish", "Muslim", "Oriental", "handicapped" or any other (possibly local) minority status, which I personally would consider as a self-discrimination attempt, for better or for worse.
do not know what they are doing--that this is really discrimination, and against the law. As to minority businesses--I think it was Ok in the past to say a black-owned business, a Hispanic-owned business, a women-owned business, but not a white-owned business or a men-owned business. I do not think it is as acceptable anymore--I am not sure if it is legal, but people would definitely frown on that type of advertising.
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 05:38
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
| Discrimination? | Oct 17, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote:
Independent contractors may be slightly less protected, but you still could not advertise 'I need black dancers, a female photographer, a native Italian cook for a party, etc. You would have to say: a cook familiar with the Italian cuisine, a translator fluent in Spanish, dancers with experience in African dance, or breakdance, etc.
[Edited at 2014-10-17 11:51 GMT]
I have heard a lot of ridiculous stories about the US legal system, and some of them seem to be true, but I'm really having a hard time to believe what you're saying. If an advertising agency were looking for a model for advertising bras or feminine hygiene products, how would they have to phrase it without risking to be sued (or receiving applications from male models that they can't use, as much as they'd wish to)?
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