| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40] > | What is your definition of “native speaker” and why does it matter to you to have a definition? Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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Peter Zhuang 
Germany
Local time: 05:40
German to English
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| Non-native literary award winners | Oct 19, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
At this point, I'm saying, if you've got 'em, show 'em. I've made my absolute claim, and I'm ready to be proved wrong.
While these may not necessary be relevant if the scope of discussion is only limited to translation, but I think you might (or at least I hope so!) find the following article interesting:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/26/books/writing-in-english-novelists-find-inventive-new-voices.html?_r=0
And I shall serve it with a topping of (yes, a certain Mr Conrad is on the list, sorry):
http://rawlangs.com/2012/12/27/multilingualism-and-literature-10-authors-who-write-in-other-languages/
Admittedly, their books must have been proofread and refined before publishing. But I don't think anyone can dispute their proficiency (and range of expression) in the language which they acquired later in life. Being a published author is already in itself no small feat, but winning literary accolades should be convincing enough.
| | | | | Sorry--did you change the fictitious name, such as 'John Doe" but | Oct 19, 2014 |
Michael Beijer wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote: Michael Beijer wrote:
Also, if you change someone's name to a more typical for the X language, everything will sound more 'native" right away, and many people will even be afraid to criticize any constructions, or mistakes--just in case it was something regional.
Change the name of a person born and raised in England to Lilian Nekipelov or Pedro Rodriguez, and people will find hundreds of "non-native mistakes' in their forum (especially forum--casual) writing.
[Edited at 2014-10-18 17:47 GMT] X language indeed. I always try to write like a judge--don't take me wrong--I was just wondering what that would be, or perhaps if their language is not 100% native (place of birth excluded), regardless of their law degrees, they should be selling vegetables, instead? Oh--X--as a variable--I did not want to write about English all the time. Yes, if you look at names, you will definitely find hundreds of mistakes--you may even hear a Russian accent in Polish or in German. It also seem as if you had no clue what American English is like. Names may, sometimes, arise various types of delusions. [Edited at 2014-10-19 08:40 GMT]
Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Seems we're not on the same page.
Furthermore, you just fried my brain with your last sentence ("Names may, sometimes, arise various types of delusions."). I think I am going to have to go lie down for a bit.
Michael
[Edited at 2014-10-19 08:52 GMT]
a Polish version, when quoting--from my post. I had a fictitious name there--not mine--like John Doe, sort of, and someone changed it without my permission. If you did, please kindly change it back. Thank you.
[Edited at 2014-10-19 09:32 GMT]
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:40
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
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| you take the Sporanos and –– illegal changes to language not rite | Oct 19, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote: Michael Beijer wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote: Michael Beijer wrote:
Also, if you change someone's name to a more typical for the X language, everything will sound more 'native" right away, and many people will even be afraid to criticize any constructions, or mistakes--just in case it was something regional.
Change the name of a person born and raised in England to Lilian Nekipelov or Pedro Rodriguez, and people will find hundreds of "non-native mistakes' in their forum (especially forum--casual) writing.
[Edited at 2014-10-18 17:47 GMT] X language indeed. I always try to write like a judge--don't take me wrong--I was just wondering what that would be, or perhaps if their language is not 100% native (place of birth excluded), regardless of their law degrees, they should be selling vegetables, instead? Oh--X--as a variable--I did not want to write about English all the time. Yes, if you look at names, you will definitely find hundreds of mistakes--you may even hear a Russian accent in Polish or in German. It also seem as if you had no clue what American English is like. Names may, sometimes, arise various types of delusions. [Edited at 2014-10-19 08:40 GMT] Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Seems we're not on the same page. Furthermore, you just fried my brain with your last sentence ( "Names may, sometimes, arise various types of delusions."). I think I am going to have to go lie down for a bit. Michael [Edited at 2014-10-19 08:52 GMT] a polish version, when quoting--from my post. I had a fictitious name there--not mine--like John Doe, sort of, and someone changed it without my permission. If you did, please kindly change it back. Thank you. [Edited at 2014-10-19 09:30 GMT]
it is ilegal to tamper with evidence in the Bronx tri-partite state general sopranos ,––also and ever before––this is america and people create theiur own realitylangauge––don't think that Chpomsky isn't after lingusits also speek Russian but not to black children being told they are better at basketball quite insulting.
can’t find my way out to change the change as it now all been spread across various posts and nested nested nested quotes i can't find the button––a lawyer would agree its all joke to me gringo gotta follow the argument. do you see what i meant ?well I dont either
Mikkel
[Edited at 2014-10-19 09:38 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-10-19 09:39 GMT]
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 11:40
Chinese to English
| Yep, they might be the exceptions which would prove me wrong | Oct 19, 2014 |
I dug up some of Conrad's letters the other night - they're easy to Google - and quickly found some oddities in there. So I'm not convinced, and the editing process means that these people are ruled out from my test. But yes, it might be that somewhere on those lists there is someone who would disprove my claim that you can always spot a non-native.
I just don't know what you think that proves. As I've said all along, I don't really want to make this absolute claim - though I'll sta... See more I dug up some of Conrad's letters the other night - they're easy to Google - and quickly found some oddities in there. So I'm not convinced, and the editing process means that these people are ruled out from my test. But yes, it might be that somewhere on those lists there is someone who would disprove my claim that you can always spot a non-native.
I just don't know what you think that proves. As I've said all along, I don't really want to make this absolute claim - though I'll stand by it now I've made it. But let's say that you scour the world and find a few people who really can write without error in an L2. I would be wrong. But so what? On that basis do you want to end the standard working practices that have shaped the translation industry for decades?
I keep asking this: what's the harm you're trying to correct? and what's the benefit of imposing Globish on everyone? Because that will certainly be the result if you insist on devaluing the English speaker's English.
And that's only English. Thinking about Chinese... I can't work out what will happen. I can't work out if the diversity of Chinese makes it strong or fragile; but I certainly don't think that denying that Chinese people have a certain connection to the language which others do not have is going to be a healthy way forward. ▲ Collapse
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| Yes, it is actually illegal to temper with anyone's posts | Oct 19, 2014 |
Michael Beijer wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote: Michael Beijer wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote: Michael Beijer wrote:
Also, if you change someone's name to a more typical for the X language, everything will sound more 'native" right away, and many people will even be afraid to criticize any constructions, or mistakes--just in case it was something regional.
Change the name of a person born and raised in England to Lilian Nekipelov or Pedro Rodriguez, and people will find hundreds of "non-native mistakes' in their forum (especially forum--casual) writing.
[Edited at 2014-10-18 17:47 GMT] X language indeed. I always try to write like a judge--don't take me wrong--I was just wondering what that would be, or perhaps if their language is not 100% native (place of birth excluded), regardless of their law degrees, they should be selling vegetables, instead? Oh--X--as a variable--I did not want to write about English all the time. Yes, if you look at names, you will definitely find hundreds of mistakes--you may even hear a Russian accent in Polish or in German. It also seem as if you had no clue what American English is like. Names may, sometimes, arise various types of delusions. [Edited at 2014-10-19 08:40 GMT] Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Seems we're not on the same page. Furthermore, you just fried my brain with your last sentence ( "Names may, sometimes, arise various types of delusions."). I think I am going to have to go lie down for a bit. Michael [Edited at 2014-10-19 08:52 GMT] a polish version, when quoting--from my post. I had a fictitious name there--not mine--like John Doe, sort of, and someone changed it without my permission. If you did, please kindly change it back. Thank you. [Edited at 2014-10-19 09:30 GMT] it is ilegal to tamper with evidence in the Bronx tri-partite state general sopranos ,––also and ever before––this is america and people create theiur own realitylangauge––don't think that Chpomsky isn't after lingusits also speek Russian but not to black children being told they are better at basketball quite insulting. can’t find my way out to change the change as it now all been spread across various posts and nested nested nested quotes i can't find the button––a lawyer would agree its all joke to me gringo gotta follow the argument. do you see what i meant ?well I dont either Mikkel [Edited at 2014-10-19 09:38 GMT] [Edited at 2014-10-19 09:39 GMT]
I am not saying you did it--but someone did it, because I did not do it. I do not like The Sopranos, and do not know much about the series at all---so you can accuse me of anything, even of such things as "no native knowledge of The Sopranos'.
If it is a joke--that's fine.
By the way it is really fun to communicate in such completely ungrammatical, distorted English. Perhaps Joyce was right.
[Edited at 2014-10-19 09:52 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:40
Hebrew to English
| Varieties of English | Oct 19, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote:
tell a teenager from the Bronx "muster ", and they will not only think you are not an English speaker
The idea* that teenagers from the Bronx are ignorant of English idioms is hardly an argument against the existence of native speakers.
*I call it an idea, as opposed to a fact, because I find this assertion quite iffy to say the least.
they usually take me for Icelandic, especially when I work for one company, and I do not speak almost any Icelandic--very little
You really do Americans no favours with your little anecdotes. You make them sound like a bunch of simpletons. I'm fairly certain you won't be thanked for that.
| | | | | Sure, if you are the FBI and want to solve a crime. | Oct 19, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
I dug up some of Conrad's letters the other night - they're easy to Google - and quickly found some oddities in there. So I'm not convinced, and the editing process means that these people are ruled out from my test. But yes, it might be that somewhere on those lists there is someone who would disprove my claim that you can always spot a non-native.
I just don't know what you think that proves. As I've said all along, I don't really want to make this absolute claim - though I'll stand by it now I've made it. But let's say that you scour the world and find a few people who really can write without error in an L2. I would be wrong. But so what? On that basis do you want to end the standard working practices that have shaped the translation industry for decades?
I keep asking this: what's the harm you're trying to correct? and what's the benefit of imposing Globish on everyone? Because that will certainly be the result if you insist on devaluing the English speaker's English.
And that's only English. Thinking about Chinese... I can't work out what will happen. I can't work out if the diversity of Chinese makes it strong or fragile; but I certainly don't think that denying that Chinese people have a certain connection to the language which others do not have is going to be a healthy way forward.
this is why they have forensic linguists. Other that that, it should not be any of anyone's business.
[Edited at 2014-10-19 10:11 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:40
Hebrew to English
| God bless Google | Oct 19, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote:
a CONCEPT that Prof. Chomsky invented
Afraid not. Both "native language" and "native speaker" appear in countless books throughout the 1800s, long before Chomsky was a twinkle in his great-great grandfather's eye.
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| Wy should people in another part of the world care about | Oct 19, 2014 |
Ty Kendall wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote:
tell a teenager from the Bronx "muster ", and they will not only think you are not an English speaker The idea* that teenagers from the Bronx are ignorant of English idioms is hardly an argument against the existence of native speakers. *I call it an idea, as opposed to a fact, because I find this assertion quite iffy to say the least. they usually take me for Icelandic, especially when I work for one company, and I do not speak almost any Icelandic--very little You really do Americans no favours with your little anecdotes. You make them sound like a bunch of simpletons. I'm fairly certain you won't be thanked for that.
some not very attractive (at least from the phonetic point of view) idioms? There are hundreds of nicer soundings idioms here, and other places.
| | | | | Perhaps from the colonial times, | Oct 19, 2014 |
Ty Kendall wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote:
a CONCEPT that Prof. Chomsky invented Afraid not. Both "native language" and "native speaker" appear in countless books throughout the 1800s, long before Chomsky was a twinkle in his great-great grandfather's eye.
in a slightly different context.
As to judging someone's language by the looks --it is human, although once they asked me if was a Creole interpreter--this still makes laugh, although it is possible that some educated people of European descent speak Creole, but I think the woman might have confused Creole with Croatian.
When I say just two sentences in German, they may take me for a German--I guess this is what Lisa was describing.
There is no such a thing as a native speaker of English--there might be a natural speaker of Bronx English below a certain street and above, or a speaker of English from X part of Brooklyn, or an educated general New York English speaker--but not a"native speaker of English' in a generic sense, other than as a concept.
[Edited at 2014-10-19 10:27 GMT]
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Removed per poster's request. | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:40
Hebrew to English
| We're not in Kansas anymore... | Oct 19, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote:
Wy should people in another part of the world care about some not very attractive (at least from the phonetic point of view) idioms?
What?!?
Perhaps from the colonial times
Quoi?!?
As to judging someone's language by the looks
¿Qué?
but I think the woman might have confused Creole with Croatian
Što ?
There is no such a thing as a native speaker of English
I beg to differ.
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| Yes, I persoanally ignore idioms and words which do not sound attractive to me | Oct 19, 2014 |
1. Albeit.
2. Leverage.
3. Muster.
4. A few others.
[Edited at 2014-10-19 10:38 GMT]
| | | | Peter Zhuang
Germany
Local time: 05:40
German to English
+ ...
| I may still be starry-eyed | Oct 19, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
I keep asking this: what's the harm you're trying to correct? and what's the benefit of imposing Globish on everyone? Because that will certainly be the result if you insist on devaluing the English speaker's English.
And that's only English. Thinking about Chinese... I can't work out what will happen. I can't work out if the diversity of Chinese makes it strong or fragile; but I certainly don't think that denying that Chinese people have a certain connection to the language which others do not have is going to be a healthy way forward.
You asked for examples of excellent non-native English authors, and I supplied two articles to show you that they do exist. That is all.
It is certainly not about imposing "Globish" on anyone (standard English has always been my benchmark of excellence). I don't perceive the dilema. Native-speakers can go forth and continue to be excellent, non-natives can continue to strive for excellence.
As a person interested in languages, I want to push the boundary (for myself) to determine what is possible for a non-native speaker (in my case: of German).
Will I ever claim to be a native German speaker? No (unless I am utterly stupid).
Do I want to be so proficient in German, that my writings are virtually indistinguishable from a native? Yes.
Long story short:
It's about demystifying the nebulous aura of unattainableness surrounding a native speaker. I might never ever achieve my aspiration, but I am not willing to accept the existence of an eternal gulf between a native and a non-native.
But maybe I am just starry-eyed.
[Edited at 2014-10-19 10:43 GMT]
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Removed per poster's request. | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » What is your definition of “native speaker” and why does it matter to you to have a definition? | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
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