| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40] > | What is your definition of “native speaker” and why does it matter to you to have a definition? Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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| Illegal for political reasons | Oct 12, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote: Tomás wrote:
I have a deep respect for customers' preferences, the same way I want to be free to choose freely when I pay for something. or blondes, or African American women. What about that? They may also state their reasons for it--yet that would be illegal. Or, women only translating articles and books about women, men about any men issues. This may all make sense to some extent--but it would all be illegal as a filtering option.
Every customer has their right to choose whoever they like for their work, and they will indeed choose based on their requirements and preferences, inside or outside of the system, the same way you will freely decide whether you go to Bakery A or Bakery B for your bread.
Maybe one day you will be forced by law to go to Bakery A because by allowing you to choose your suppliers and professionals, the door would be open for you to be discriminatory. Policy makers certainly want to protect you from your own evil!
| | | | | Precisely! Freedom of choice | Oct 12, 2014 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Every customer has their right to choose whoever they like for their work, and they will indeed choose based on their requirements and preferences, inside or outside of the system, the same way you will freely decide whether you go to Bakery A or Bakery B for your bread.
Once I had a somewhat unusual situation.
I was hired as a sworn interpreter for some official procedure here in Sao Paulo.
As soon as I introduced myself, my British interpretee did not hold back his annoyance at having an American interpreter, and expressed it in so many words to his puzzled Brazilian attorney, who had hired me. I explained to that Brit that, according to the Law, I was required to be Brazilian for that job, which I really was. This seemed to ease off his mind, and he was thoroughly pleasant afterwards. (No idea on where such bigotry came from.)
Later I learned that the lawyer was actually the Brit's father-in-law, so if he was at all disappointed from me not being a big-breasted, blue-eyed, blond, dazzling young woman, he wouldn't have let it out anyway.
It's always the client's choice, regardless of what anyone conceives as a "native speaker", "safe driver", or any other self-claimed attribute.
| | | | | Absolutely-but no one can prevent people for applying for those jobs | Oct 12, 2014 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: LilianNekipelov wrote: Tomás wrote:
I have a deep respect for customers' preferences, the same way I want to be free to choose freely when I pay for something. or blondes, or African American women. What about that? They may also state their reasons for it--yet that would be illegal. Or, women only translating articles and books about women, men about any men issues. This may all make sense to some extent--but it would all be illegal as a filtering option. Every customer has their right to choose whoever they like for their work, and they will indeed choose based on their requirements and preferences, inside or outside of the system, the same way you will freely decide whether you go to Bakery A or Bakery B for your bread. Maybe one day you will be forced by law to go to Bakery A because by allowing you to choose your suppliers and professionals, the door would be open for you to be discriminatory. Policy makers certainly want to protect you from your own evil!
Also, customers should be better informed--that native language alone does not guarantee anything in professional translation. A customer may even choose one person over another because of their style. Nobody can forbid you, however, to apply for a job in an Italian restaurant if you are mostly a French gourmet cook.
[Edited at 2014-10-12 15:11 GMT]
| | | | Peter Zhuang 
Germany
Local time: 23:07
German to English
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| Use, abuse and asian restaurant | Oct 12, 2014 |
Use
For the sake of argument, let us define native speaker to be a person who started learning a language before his seventh birthday.
I can't think of an occupation which is fully analogous to translator, so I shall use a journalist working at an English broadsheet newspaper as an example (i.e. professional writer).
Imagine: John Doe goes for an interview for a position at an English daily newspaper, The Lardian. His qualifications and experiences correspo... See more Use
For the sake of argument, let us define native speaker to be a person who started learning a language before his seventh birthday.
I can't think of an occupation which is fully analogous to translator, so I shall use a journalist working at an English broadsheet newspaper as an example (i.e. professional writer).
Imagine: John Doe goes for an interview for a position at an English daily newspaper, The Lardian. His qualifications and experiences correspond to the requirements of The Lardian. However, the interviewer rejected him outright after knowing that he first learnt English at the age of 12, citing that John is a non-native speaker and therefore unsuitable for the job.
Abuse
As a Singaporean, I enrolled in a English-speaking Kindergarten at 3 years old, went through 10 years of mandatory English-speaking education and 7 years of English-speaking tiertiary education. The first word that I spoke were in Chinese, and I had 13 years of formal Chinese education. All the while, I was exposed to bilingual media. And yet, it didn't stop people from questioning my "nativeness".
By using a sliver of fact-finding skills (e.g. Google search), it is not difficult to find out that Singapore has four official languages (English being one of them) and the highest level of English proficiency in Asia. Singapore Standard English is grammatically identical to British Standard English (thanks to our colonial past).
If the author of several bestsellers could receive heavy criticisms for her work, no one is safe from the judgements of the self-purported experts. But there are more important things (e.g. improving language/translation skills) than to placate other people.
Asian Restaurant
What does it really mean to be an "Asian" restaurant (or restaurant service "Western" food)? Nothing. But customers may have certain expectations of the type of food served in an "Asian" restaurant.
[Edited at 2014-10-12 15:26 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-10-12 15:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| No--you cannot make any such definitions | Oct 12, 2014 |
for general use, any other purpose than speculations. It is a term that means many things and basically nothing. My mother spoke mostly German before the age of six but you would not want her to translate anything into German or even say in German later in her life, since she spoke mostly other languages after that age--she almost could not speak it.
[Edited at 2014-10-12 15:47 GMT]
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Removed per poster's request.
| DLyons
Ireland
Local time: 22:07
Spanish to English
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| Pointless topic. | Oct 12, 2014 |
There are grey areas. There are Conrads and Nabokovs. There are also people who are clearly not native speakers and some of them don't even know it.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:07
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Regarding the discussion | Oct 12, 2014 |
DLyons wrote:
Pointless topic
There are grey areas. There are Conrads and Nabokovs. There are also people who are clearly not native speakers and some of them don't even know it.
Pointless topic?
Maybe the discussion can help clarify the term for many.
[Edited at 2014-10-12 17:18 GMT]
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DLyons
Ireland
Local time: 22:07
Spanish to English
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| I was too brusque. | Oct 12, 2014 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: DLyons wrote:
Pointless topic
There are grey areas. There are Conrads and Nabokovs. There are also people who are clearly not native speakers and some of them don't even know it. Pointless topic? Maybe the discussion can help clarify the term for many. [Edited at 2014-10-12 16:24 GMT]
Hopefully it has, and I don't mean to offend. But I don't believe discussions like this achieve anything. There are too many genuinely grey areas and too many entrenched positions.
There clearly are self-professed native speakers on ProZ who are not that (on any reasonable definition of the term). And among them are some people I think genuinely believe that they are.
Just by way of a single example, I recently stumbled across a "native" English speaker who gave a totally wrong answer with a 5 confidence, but whose profile asserts that their work shows their nativeness.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:07
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Being a translator with native language X | Oct 12, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote:
Also, customers should be better informed--that native language alone does not guarantee anything in professional translation. A customer may even choose one person over another because of their style.
The thread is about defining "native speaker" or "native language" or "native speech"
and why the definition matters to other translators. I propose that because the term native speaker is used in our business and is perceived to have value (= it is an important factor), it should be defined. If it is not defined, anyone can claim to be a native speaker. That would allow misrepresentations and would not be desirable in my eyes.
Translators who, according to their profile page, are native speakers are so without definition of the term and without verification.
I hold that the factor "native speaker" or "native "language" or "native speech" (with regard to language X) alone does not guarantee the quality of a translation into language X.
But I suggest that having registered at this site as a translator, having added fields of expertise and possibly much more information (second language, samples, WWA, other feedback, education, experience, ...), clients are typically presented with a professional in the industry, not simply any "native speaker." However, taking into account all these aspects and factors which describe a translator's background, I hold that many clients will decide to select a "native speaker of language X" for particular translations into language X. And IMO, they have every right to do so.
Thus, false claims should be prevented. Without a definition, that is not really possible.
LilianNekipelov wrote:
Nobody can forbid you, however, to apply for a job in an Italian restaurant if you are mostly a French gourmet cook.
No one can forbid you that, right. But I propose the person should be a French gourmet cook if they say they are and the concept of French gourmet cook should be clear.
[Edited at 2014-10-12 17:14 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 23:07
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| On whether native language is often required | Oct 12, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
But I'm not quite willing to embrace this idea yet, for this reason: translation goes both ways. Every translator who is excluded from one job is included for another. If you want to argue that the native criterion is discriminatory, you have to show one additional thing: that there are way more jobs going in one direction than the other, so the native criterion is effectively excluding people of a specific ethnic background from the industry.
I don't think something is discriminatory only if it results in unfair division of labour overall.
Discrimination is personal. If I am excluded from a job because e.g. I am male, but I can get several others jobs easily without reference to the fact that I'm male, then that does not mean that I was not discriminated against in that first job.
Still, you raise an interesting point: how often is native language required? I would have thought: very often. But a search in the ProZ.com job posts that were indexed by Google reveals something interesting. Remember, job posters can indicate whether they prefer a native language, and they can indicate if the native language is merely preferred or actually required. The numbers are:
* native language preferred: 8770 jobs
* native language required: 5340 jobs
* no native language preferred or required: 24500 jobs
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I hold that many clients will decide to select a "native speaker of language X" for particular translations into language X.
Interestingly, fewer than 1 in 5 do.
[Edited at 2014-10-12 17:16 GMT]
| | | | | It may also depend native speakers of what. | Oct 12, 2014 |
DLyons wrote:
There are grey areas. There are Conrads and Nabokovs. There are also people who are clearly not native speakers and some of them don't even know it.
I would say 90% of the things written by the, so called, 'native speakers" of English on various fora does not resemble high quality English expected from people working with language.
In my opinion, there is really no such a thing as a native speaker of English--only a native speaker of Y idiolect, belonging to English.
I am 100% sure that any inquiry into someone's native languages, ethnic languages, ethnic background are forbidden in the US, not only with regard to work--I just had a chance recently to reconfirm that. "Native language" is a very vague term, and it is almost irrelevant to translation--of course you can mention it in your resume, if you want to, but no one should question you about it, but rather some companies may administer a general language test--for all applicants, without discrimination, or even classifying mistakes into native and non-native (something that applies only to beginner language teaching). So, I think all discussions are constructive, and have a lot of value from different points of view, however, I do not think we will be able to define--precisely what 'native speaker" is, and especially attempt to use this category for anything, because at least in the US, that would be illegal.
[Edited at 2014-10-12 17:33 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 23:07
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| On the definition of "language" for the purpose of native language | Oct 12, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote:
In my opinion, there is really no such a thing as a native speaker of English -- only a native speaker of an idiolect [of] English.
We are on page 7 of this discussion and we have reached the question (which we predictably should reach, now that we have this discussion all over again) of what constitutes a language.
I agree with your sentiments, for after all, all towns, circles of friends and even families or households have idiosyncracities in their language with which the children grow up thinking that that is normal in the language.
I notice this in my own language and I see it in the language of other native speaking translators of my language -- sometimes a certain way of saying something is not universal to that language but is used only by a small group, and if you're in that group, you may not realise that it's just a small group using it. Other native speakers of the language may flag the expression as non-native, despite the fact that you have learnt it under native learning conditions.
According to ProZ.com's treatment of language variants, all native speakers of US English are also native speakers of South African English, Australian English, British English and Canadian English. What's more, all 230 million native speakers of English in the United States are native speakers of the exact same language. Well, that is clearly not tenable.
I find it odd that although one can search on "native language" in ProZ.com's directory, one can't search on native locality (i.e. the country or region in which you were born and/or grew up in). Surely the quality of "native language" is meaningless without it. (One can search for *current* locality, but not... not for current language identity (only for original language identity)).
| | | | | Especially in multilingual environments it becomes more apparent | Oct 12, 2014 |
that people speak idiolects.
[Edited at 2014-10-12 17:44 GMT]
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 17:07
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Regarding fora writing | Oct 12, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote:
I would say 90% of the things written by the, so called, 'native speakers" of English on various fora does not resemble high quality English expected from people working with language.
What I would say is that comments on fora should not be perceived as carefully written texts. However, I can't agree with any assessment that comes to the conclusion that native speakers start writing like non-native speakers. There are differences that can be observed. Especially, as many will hold, when a person chats for a longer period of time.
Here are some of the differences (which I agree with) from a link that Tom provided earlier:
https://www.englishforums.com/English/HowTellWhetherSomeoneNativeSpeaker/dvcbg/post.htm
1. Discrepancies of register. A non-native speaker's English may be impeccable, for the most part; but slight failures of tone or register are most noticeable, in impeccable English. For instance, the non-native may use a word which a native speaker of that kind of English would never use in that context. Or a word may be used in a grammatical but unusual way. The commonest words are the most treacherous, in this connection: "quite", "nice", etc.
2. Absence of context. It's very difficult to provide sample sentences or chat for any length of time without revealing something about your background. When non-native speakers are writing naturally, they reveal something of their native background. When they are writing carefully, however, and perhaps do not wish to be taken for a native speaker, they reveal nothing. There may be literary references, for instance; but the little everyday details are missing.
...
5. Rhythm. Non-native speakers often bring a little of their native rhythm into English. The clauses may be not quite the right length; the pauses may sound mannered.
6. Grammatical regularity combined with inappropriate idioms. Grammar is the weakness of native speakers; idiom is the weakness of non-native speakers.
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