| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Attention Outsourcers: "best" rate Thread poster: Susan Welsh
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| @Balasubramaniam | Jul 2, 2015 |
What Vladimir says is correct.
Translators in low-cost countries are not going to charge lower rates just because they can afford to. They will charge as much as they can get away with. Such is the nature of business.
The only reason for them to charge lower rates is because they are unable to compete on quality.
And that will often be because they are not translating into their mother tongue.
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 23:59
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Disagree with Chris | Jul 2, 2015 |
Chris S wrote:
Translators in low-cost countries are not going to charge lower rates just because they can afford to. They will charge as much as they can get away with. Such is the nature of business.
That may be the nature of "business" in some cultures, but in others cultures, honest and ethical translators will not charge more than they believe is fair. In fact, many translator associations' codes of ethics have such a stipulation (not to charge "excessive" rates).
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 03:29
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | That was False Positve #1 | Jul 2, 2015 |
Chris S wrote:
The only reason for them to charge lower rates is because they are unable to compete on quality.
When people don't read other's arguments through, we are forced to move round and round in circles.
This was exactly the argument that I had tried to debunk in my earlier post. It is a common fallacy that people charging lower rates produce shoddy work.
And that will often be because they are not translating into their mother tongue.
The other side of the coin of low price is the myth that "mother tongue translators produce better quality translations".
Many translators are forced to charge lower rates just to counter this charge. Here we have a case of two inimical ideas working together to bring down the boat on which we are all riding.
Even if we take this to be true for the sake of argument, many agencies have worked out a strategy of splitting the job between two people - translator+editor (the later being native speaker). This however works to the detriment of both, as the same amount of money is now split between two contenders, with both ending up as the loser.
[Edited at 2015-07-02 10:50 GMT]
| | | | | Value rather than "cost plus" | Jul 2, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Chris S wrote:
Translators in low-cost countries are not going to charge lower rates just because they can afford to. They will charge as much as they can get away with. Such is the nature of business. That may be the nature of "business" in some cultures, but in others cultures, honest and ethical translators will not charge more than they believe is fair. In fact, many translator associations' codes of ethics have such a stipulation (not to charge "excessive" rates).
It is a shame that many (most?) translators assume the income from a particular job should be based on how much it cost to produce it, plus a bit for expertise, a spot of after-sales and so on. Aided and abetted, it should be said, by sites like this one.
Consider this - all other things being equal (quality, timeliness), is the value of a translation different to the end customer as a function of where it has been produced? Seems unlikely. Pricing based at least in part on utility (in the sense it is used in economics) might be the way forward..... Still, this thread seems to be less about the term "best rate" specifically and more about rates in general now - I for one am astounded at this turn of events .
(Lest you dismiss me as an arch-capitalist pig-dog of the kind responsible for all that is rotten in this sorry world, know that on Monday, I declined work from a Swiss "wealth management" (i.e. tax avoidance) firm that made much of its dealings with Saudi Arabia and Qatar.)
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| Careful now... | Jul 2, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
When people don't read other's arguments through, we are forced to move round and round in circles.
I did read your arguments. I just exercised my right to disagree with them.
You seem to be arguing that people in low-cost countries charge less just because they can. Well so could I, but I don't. Because I don't have to. And if they were offering an equivalent product, neither would they have to. And if they didn't have to, they wouldn't. Human nature. Laws of economics. Way of the world.
Samuel Murray wrote:
That may be the nature of "business" in some cultures, but in others cultures, honest and ethical translators will not charge more than they believe is fair.
This whole debate is about being paid less than what honest and ethical translators believe is fair.
| | | | | Using the translator+editor approach is an evil strategy? Don't think so. | Jul 2, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Even if we take this to be true for the sake of argument, many agencies have worked out a strategy of splitting the job between two people - translator+editor (the later being native speaker). This however works to the detriment of both, as the same amount of money is now split between two contenders, with both ending up as the loser.
???
I believe having at least two people (translator+editor) involved in the project is the de facto, or even de jure, standard in the translation industry, regardless of whether original translators are native speakers. Moreover, some agencies employ the services of a third person acting as a proofreader (generally without reference to the source text).
| | | | | Gaining competitive advantage by lowering the rates | Jul 2, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Vladimir Pochinov wrote:
Why should translators lower their rates if they live in a country with a lower cost of living? Obviously to gain competitive advantage. --- No translator with a lower cost of living will charge less than what the market can support, or below his own minimum requirement.
That's it. People lower rates to gain competitive advantage, i.e. they try to compete on price, then they complain here or elsewhere about declining rates.
Also, what market do you mean? Their domestic market or the global market for a particular language pair direction? Personally, I am not very much interested in what my domestic market can support. I work almost exclusively for higher-end overseas clients who can appreciate reliability and quality when they see them.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 23:59
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Charlie Bavington wrote: Samuel Murray wrote: Chris S wrote:
Translators in low-cost countries are not going to charge lower rates just because they can afford to. They will charge as much as they can get away with. Such is the nature of business. That may be the nature of "business" in some cultures, but in others cultures, honest and ethical translators will not charge more than they believe is fair. In fact, many translator associations' codes of ethics have such a stipulation (not to charge "excessive" rates). It is a shame that many (most?) translators assume the income from a particular job should be based on how much it cost to produce it, plus a bit for expertise, a spot of after-sales and so on. Aided and abetted, it should be said, by sites like this one.
My guess is that only newbie translators think like that. Most translators who actually work for a living will, I think, eventually adjust their rates according to what they think the market will accept. The problem with low-cost countries (a similar thing applies to high-cost countries) is that most translators who haven't worked in the international arena for quite a while will evaluate their own rate in terms of their own, local market.
Consider this - all other things being equal (quality, timeliness), is the value of a translation different to the end customer as a function of where it has been produced?
No, but I know of no manufacturing process in which the cost of each part is determined by the portion of value that that part provides to the whole. Some parts of a manufacturing process are disproportionately expensive, and others disproportionately cheap.
Besides, translators often don't know what the value of their translation is for the client (the client may use the translation to make a little money, or lots of money). Even if they did, they would be hard-pressed to sell their translations at that rate, for it would assume the client only wants to break even (not make a profit in the end).
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| Consider this | Jul 2, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
My guess is that only newbie translators think like that. Most translators who actually work for a living will, I think, eventually adjust their rates according to what they think the market will accept.
Dunno so much. When the n00bs come on here asking how much to charge, some quite experienced people seem to think pointing them in the direction of this website's rate calculator is a useful response. Perhaps its a double bluff .
I would say that "what the market will bear" is moving in the direction of "what it's worth to the buyer" (i.e. away from purely cost-based pricing)
Samuel Murray wrote: Consider this - all other things being equal (quality, timeliness), is the value of a translation different to the end customer as a function of where it has been produced? No, but I know of no manufacturing process in which the cost of each part is determined by the portion of value that that part provides to the whole. Some parts of a manufacturing process are disproportionately expensive, and others disproportionately cheap.
True. Other factors come into play - ease of substitution (again, in the economics sense) and supply factors, for instance. FWIW, when I said "consider this", I meant the whole chunk up to the "...."
Samuel Murray wrote:
Besides, translators often don't know what the value of their translation is for the client (the client may use the translation to make a little money, or lots of money). Even if they did, they would be hard-pressed to sell their translations at that rate, for it would assume the client only wants to break even (not make a profit in the end).
Lack of knowledge is certainly a key obstacle. As is the possibility that the true value might actually be less than what the translation costs, or hard to quantify.
Note however, as regards your final remark, that "based on" is not the same as "equal to" .
I'm not offering a definitive alternative solution, just saying that the translator's costs do not necessarily have to form the sole basis for calculating the price for a job.
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don't forget supply and demand.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 23:59
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| The rate calculator's value | Jul 2, 2015 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
When the n00bs come on here asking how much to charge, some quite experienced people seem to think pointing them in the direction of this website's rate calculator is a useful response.
I would also do that, because I think the rate calculator can be a good wake-up call. If you apply the rate calculator correctly, you'll end up with a high rate, unless you're an unmarried kitchen-table translator living with parents.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 17:59
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
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| What would happen to the rate calculator if... | Jul 2, 2015 |
a few dozen of us set our rates to $25,000 per word?
Charlie Bavington wrote: When the n00bs come on here asking how much to charge, some quite experienced people seem to think pointing them in the direction of this website's rate calculator is a useful response. Perhaps its a double bluff .
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AHMED KARIM
Morocco
Local time: 22:59
English to German
+ ...
| We sould always ask for good rates | Jul 2, 2015 |
When a client asks for our best rates, this means that we should set our best rates no the other way around.
We are responsible for the decreasing rates of translation services in the market.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 05:59
Chinese to English
| A big data point | Jul 3, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Chris S wrote:
Translators in low-cost countries are not going to charge lower rates just because they can afford to. They will charge as much as they can get away with. Such is the nature of business. That may be the nature of "business" in some cultures, but in others cultures, honest and ethical translators will not charge more than they believe is fair. In fact, many translator associations' codes of ethics have such a stipulation (not to charge "excessive" rates).
In support of Chris, and contra Samuel: China. I can report with total confidence that no-one I've ever spoken to in the industry in this country thinks that they should keep their prices low for ethical reasons. Prices are low here because of fierce competition and because of a chaotic industry structure. But those translators who are able to raise their prices do. To a man/woman.
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Charlie Bavington wrote:
Consider this - all other things being equal (quality, timeliness), is the value of a translation different to the end customer as a function of where it has been produced? Seems unlikely. Pricing based at least in part on utility (in the sense it is used in economics) might be the way forward.....
A plumber is called out to a job to fix a sink in a hotel room, then another sink in someone's flat. Same problem, same length of time to repair the sink.
Should he charge the hotel more because they will make a profit from their sink? Probably not. It is not the plumber's business. He might charge more simply because he knows the hotel has more money than the flat-owner, but not on the basis of the customer's future use of the sink.
The same goes for translation. Charge what you want to earn per hour and what you think your services are actually worth, taking the financial situation of your clients into consideration while negotiating.
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