| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | With whom I identify as a Pro on Proz.com and why there is a general problem Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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Diana Coada (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:12
Portuguese to English
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I posted earlier replying to a post of yours, but you did not reply to that. That was my only post directed at you.
My last post was directed at plenty of other contributors who offended me, Sheila and many other professionals.
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 10:12
Spanish to English
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I also never trashed part-time translators, or implied that their efforts were unworthy of recognition. I in fact implied - and most certainly believe - that some part-timers are better translators than some full-timers.
Yet I do stand by endorsement of Dan's statement that "there is a significant difference between somebody who translates for fun or pocket money and somebody who translates because she or her children will face extreme hardship if she doesn't."
| | | | LEXpert
United States
Local time: 09:12
Member (2008)
Croatian to English
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| Comparison with pilots | Mar 6, 2016 |
CafeTran Training wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
No pilot will fly you for 10 dollars an hour.
It's a little more complicated than that:
In the US, starting pay for first officers at regional airlines is often in the very low 20s, which works out to about $10/h on an annualized basis (though the hourly rate for actual flight time is higher).
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 10:12
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | What are you trying to defend here? | Mar 6, 2016 |
Rudolf Vedo CT wrote: CafeTran Training wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
No pilot will fly you for 10 dollars an hour.
It's a little more complicated than that: In the US, starting pay for first officers at regional airlines is often in the very low 20s, which works out to about $10/h on an annualized basis (though the hourly rate for actual flight time is higher).
Are you defending low rates then? Are you saying, as a translator, you have to give in to the bad and the ugly? I wouldn't.
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Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 10:12
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Not intended to be a low-rate rant | Mar 7, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: Mirko Mainardi wrote:
But... derailed from what? Wasn't it supposed to be about ProZ.com? Haven't we had enough generalised low-rate rants from Bernhard? They're getting very repetitive.
This is certainly not intended to be a low-rate rant, Sheila. It's meant as a discussion of the state of our industry, plain and simple, and with whom we professionals share space here. I am sorry but there are at least two faces of/sides to this portal.
One is that of a myriad of profile pages, also reflected in the directory of translators and translation agencies. Many real Pros among them.
Then there is the job board. It's like a shop (I'll just call it that for now) where anything goes, really. Especially low, low rates.
However, it's all subsumed under the same name (Proz.com), and we're all part of that portal as long as we use it. I am not comfortable with that shop next to my profile and what's going on in it. I don't like the fact that bottom feeders have no problem doing business here as if what they do is acceptable business practice. It just isn't.
This laissez-faire system that is promoted will hopefully run itself into the ground soon. The lower those offers go, the less likely it seems to me that any clear-thinking and skilled translator will work under these conditions. Thus the quality of the translations will surely deteriorate even more.
This site (and other sites) that boasts to be promoting professional translators is surely promoting (even if it's not intended) cheap agencies and jobs, unacceptable to any serious translator. It's the way it's set up. Other portals are just the same. Now many will scoff at that and say well how else are you going to do that? There are ways. But as long as the site runs fine for the owners, there is no reason to change it. Now that might change in the future. But I am not going to wait for that.
I believe that instead of first and foremost supporting professionals (here and at other portals), the urgent-5-cent-and-below outsourcers and translators and the best-rate/price bottom feeders unscrupulously continue to do their bidding here and elsewhere - they are surely supported very well. Nothing ever changes. Because of the set-up. I can't change the structure of this or other sites and I don't expect it to change soon, but I don't have to like it and I don't have to work in a little room behind that big shop-window that screams "as cheap as possible, do as I say, wait as long as I say for payment, ..."
What I can do though is talk about it and try to tell newcomers what it is they are getting themselves into. I don't see anything wrong with that. On the contrary, at least it's some sort of counter action. I would also expect seasoned professionals to speak out more against these bad practices.
The serious translators have to figure out other ways and try to get to the serious clients using other features of this and other sites?! Yes, we can try. At the same time - Who really profits the most from these translation portals? It doesn't help me to hear that the really good jobs come through direct contacts by way of the translator directory. Maybe that's your opinion as well, but from my perspective, most contacts are just as ridiculous as the posted jobs. And no, it's not good enough for me to get one or two good clients per year and use this as an argument that this site works just fine for me. No, this and other sites work fine for bottom-feeders, that's a fact.
It seems every time we discuss this situation, many contributors are downplaying these bottom-feeder translators and agencies that do business here and at other portals. The argument usually goes like this: There are many other features here that help serious translators get great contacts. Let's not kid ourselves. The most important feature of this site are lots and lots of members, paying ones and non-paying ones that engage in business that is not helpful to us (IMHO). Plus ads. It's downright insulting that some people actually excuse shady businesses or don't think they should be concerned about them.
However, as I said before, I do hope that, eventually, all this cheap business will end. But maybe not. Not so fast. Certainly not if new translators keep taking over where the other newbies left off after they got sick of being exploited.
Robert asked "what to do?" Okay, I for one am weighing my options every year here. I also figured to make it clear that I don't feel this is a community of professionals, not when it comes to the business side of this and other portals. As far as the forums are concerned, yes, many real "Pros" participate, and I rarely see people promoting low rates or working with bottom-feeders. That does give one a sense of community. But that doesn't change the fact that I feel kind of duped by this and other portals - you pay, you contribute to forums and KudoZ, but it's just like any other translation portal where the bottom-feeders laugh all the way to the bank and would never take you seriously. And every time these low-ballers win, we lose, in the big scheme of things. You might say that's just competition, that's just business. No, it's not. It's a very unhealthy way of doing business in this kind of environment. Absolutely unregulated, so anything goes.
My suggestion: do what you think will help you and keep your business on a professional level. There is a difference whether a site is called translator yellow pages.com or Proz.com. The value of "Proz" in proz.com has suffered greatly over the years, at least that's what I think. No one who does business through/via/by using this site is a professional simply because he/she is registered at "Proz".com. But I am sure not all prospective clients know this yet and, as I said before, one can get quite the wrong impression about what language services should cost by visiting this and other portals. It doesn't say anywhere on the job board that this is the cheap, hazardous part of the site (IMO), does it?
So what to do? In my case, I can't rely on this and other sites for business. I rely on word of mouth through my repeat clients, other translators and additional advertising (website, etc.) As long as I am registered here though, I need to make it clear that I distance myself from those people who do not apply best practices and whose business practices are unacceptable to me. Don't expect me to identify with bottom feeders. Get the word out. That's what it's about for me. Maybe it helps a little. I might get sick of being registered here at some point in the near future. It will depend on what the site does or does not do for me.
And just to make that clear: part-timers can be just as professional or unprofessional as full-timers. It's how you conduct your business, not whether you do it part-time or full-time.
[Edited at 2016-03-07 05:21 GMT]
| | | | | Why not holding a seminar then? | Mar 7, 2016 |
Bernhard, maybe I´m naive but perhaps you (or anybody else with huge experience in this business) should hold a brief seminar on proz, introducing to all newbies what they can expect in the domaine of translation business, the developments and how to cope with them. I´m sure you would reach more people than via this thread.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:12
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| That's a good idea | Mar 7, 2016 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
Bernhard, maybe I´m naive but perhaps you (or anybody else with huge experience in this business) should hold a brief seminar on proz, introducing to all newbies what they can expect in the domaine of translation business, the developments and how to cope with them.
Maybe once every couple of months?
Dan
| | | | | Thank you, Dan... | Mar 7, 2016 |
...and I´m sure (I know...) that neither one of the big translator´s associations nor the Universities prepare prospective translators on what they have to expect in the freelance business: just rol in, pay your fees, and jump into the cold water. With some luck a colleague recommends you, but the majority of newbies seems to wait for novels and bestsellers to translate and, of course, into a non-native language, before they turn to "technical translations", because it is all just about exchan... See more ...and I´m sure (I know...) that neither one of the big translator´s associations nor the Universities prepare prospective translators on what they have to expect in the freelance business: just rol in, pay your fees, and jump into the cold water. With some luck a colleague recommends you, but the majority of newbies seems to wait for novels and bestsellers to translate and, of course, into a non-native language, before they turn to "technical translations", because it is all just about exchanging words... ▲ Collapse
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| Lesson one: job portals are a terrible place to look for work | Mar 7, 2016 |
I have outsourced a few projects on the job board here and have always paid translators €0.10 to €0.12 per word for their work. The potential clients on the job board are not all bottom-feeding cheapskates, and things can work out very well for everyone involved.
However, in each case, I received ten or more offers for each project. Usually around 20-30% of the freelancers making offers were actually convincingly qualified in terms of the given project's subject matter, and that... See more I have outsourced a few projects on the job board here and have always paid translators €0.10 to €0.12 per word for their work. The potential clients on the job board are not all bottom-feeding cheapskates, and things can work out very well for everyone involved.
However, in each case, I received ten or more offers for each project. Usually around 20-30% of the freelancers making offers were actually convincingly qualified in terms of the given project's subject matter, and that meant that generalists were nearly excluded from the outset. Even among those two or three remaining offers, half or two-thirds were rejected, because I only needed one translator. (Normal outsourcers probably also receive far more and far better offers: I have never bothered to set up a Blue Board profile, and I assume that many good translators refuse to even make an offer for that reason.)
To make a long story short: Job portals are a terrible place to look for any significant portion of your work (although they can work out very nicely once in a while). Even if the potential clients are interested in paying reasonable rates, any given translator is very unlikely to be the most qualified among what is often dozens of offers for a particular project. And it is a Catch-22: The more demanding the outsourcer, the less often any given translator will be what they are looking for, and the less demanding the outsourcer, the less reason they have to pay higher rates than they need to. ▲ Collapse
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Sheila Wilson wrote:
There are several statements here that I personally find quite offensive.
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That's just plain ridiculous, and offensive!
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That's a preposterous statement. And one that would be censored if it was said about a particular race or colour.
I work part-time and I wasn't in the least offended.
On topic: I see ProZ as a place for entertainment, a place to sound off, a place to ask questions, but not a place to find work. I don't see other professionals bidding online for jobs...
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 10:12
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Thanks anyway | Mar 7, 2016 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
Bernhard, maybe I´m naive but perhaps you (or anybody else with huge experience in this business) should hold a brief seminar on proz, introducing to all newbies what they can expect in the domaine of translation business, the developments and how to cope with them. I´m sure you would reach more people than via this thread.
Nah, I think I'm done here. Thanks anyway for listening and participating.
| | | | | For the record..... | Mar 7, 2016 |
There was a thread the other day on why people hid behind pseudos. A lot of what has been said in this thread answers that question, if the OP of that other thread is still in doubt.
I am one of those who uses the site for entertainment, to vent, to help genuine translators find solutions to genuine problems but I do not want my real name associated with the vast majority of bottom-feeders that populate sites such as this.
I would also take issue with some of those who ... See more There was a thread the other day on why people hid behind pseudos. A lot of what has been said in this thread answers that question, if the OP of that other thread is still in doubt.
I am one of those who uses the site for entertainment, to vent, to help genuine translators find solutions to genuine problems but I do not want my real name associated with the vast majority of bottom-feeders that populate sites such as this.
I would also take issue with some of those who think part-timers are not true professionals, however diplomatically expressed. Those of us at the high end of the market can charge rates that enable us to work less for more. There comes a point in the course of the year, unless you pace yourself properly, when there is little or no point in earning more in the face of all the taxes you are going to have to pay.
There are those who would, therefore, argue that full-timers are those who have to work every hour that God sends and accept every job that comes their way just to make a humble living, given the peanuts that they charge - with all the attendant quality risks. This is yet another of those generalisations that contains some measure of truth but is not the only reality.
I am a professional translator and have been all my working life. I qualified for the job and have honed my skills in my specialist areas over the years. I do not take on jobs outside my fields. I set high standards for myself and for others. Every job I do has to be top-notch. That is what I charge for. Even if I worked full-time, I would refuse to lower those standards.
In defence of retirees, I would say that many are people who have had long full-time careers and are easing themselves out of the profession, while not wishing to let their regular clients down. Some even go to the extent of training others to take over from them, when they finally stop.
Like many of those who teach in the translation field, I make every effort to encourage students to network, to attend events, talk to people round them. I warn them against relying on "open" sites or trying to have too many specialities. I am not alone.
There are those who mock the academic route into translation, arguing that you don’t have to be a professional linguist (as long as you have another speciality plus some language knowledge) to be a translator. I maintain that a Master’s degree in translation is more than just about learning. It is also a passport to the professional world and that extra leg-up that will keep you away from the bottom-feeding route. ▲ Collapse
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| We form part of a community | Mar 7, 2016 |
I have had two brick and mortar businesses in two different towns. The reason I have had two is because I moved home 19 years ago. Anyway, I gained invaluable experience as regards dealing with customers face-to-face and learning how to form part of a business-owners' community.
You realise that you share town space with other businesses and it's up to you to prove that your school of English is better than the one across the road, or the one that opened 50 years ago. Each busine... See more I have had two brick and mortar businesses in two different towns. The reason I have had two is because I moved home 19 years ago. Anyway, I gained invaluable experience as regards dealing with customers face-to-face and learning how to form part of a business-owners' community.
You realise that you share town space with other businesses and it's up to you to prove that your school of English is better than the one across the road, or the one that opened 50 years ago. Each business caters for its own target clients, charging the prices it feels are appropriate. And you have to show respect for the other businesses in your community.
In a town you get hairdressers, supermarkets, clothes shops, etc. Some customers prefer to go to the best establishments in town and others prefer to go to cheaper places.
Even dentists, private doctors, architects and other professionals who don't seem to be included in the business-owners' communities I mention above, need to market their businesses. If they employ friendly and efficient staff, invest in the latest technology and provide comfortable facilities more people will be interested in using their services. Obviously it's up to the dentist or architect to offer services that are in line with the prices they charge, in exactly the same way anyone who values their services has to do.
ProZ is a community, just like any other. Imagine a big city full of different shops, some selling designer labels, expensive jewellery, luxury cars, etc. but in the same city there are places where they sell shirts with the buttons hanging off and zips about to break, or clothes than shrink after the first wash.
It's up to each one of us to decide where we want to situate our business: in the upper, middle or lower class areas. And it's up to the clients to decide where and how they want to spend their money. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 10:12
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Just a couple of points | Mar 8, 2016 |
Helena Chavarria wrote:
In a town you get hairdressers, supermarkets, clothes shops, etc. Some customers prefer to go to the best establishments in town and others prefer to go to cheaper places.
That wasn't really my issue. The issue is that of a storefront I don't agree with, but I am implicitly part of it by name. So I wanted to make clear that I am not part of that. And I won't call it a community in the nice sense of the word. But yes, I can leave any day.
Helena Chavarria wrote:
Even dentists, private doctors, architects and other professionals who don't seem to be included in the business-owners' communities I mention above, need to market their businesses. If they employ friendly and efficient staff, invest in the latest technology and provide comfortable facilities more people will be interested in using their services. Obviously it's up to the dentist or architect to offer services that are in line with the prices they charge, in exactly the same way anyone who values their services has to do.
That seems all very logical but it doesn't apply to the storefront here. There's lots that's not in line with anything that would be called a healthy competition (IMHO). So just don't get me confused with the storefront people. Oh, I forgot, I am pretty much invisible anyway. Nice touch. And if someone gets through, they still often don't take the time to look through the profile page to see that I wouldn't be a cheap fit. Once in a great while, a good client comes through.
Helena Chavarria wrote:
ProZ is a community, just like any other. Imagine a big city full of different shops, some selling designer labels, expensive jewellery, luxury cars, etc. but in the same city there are places where they sell shirts with the buttons hanging off and zips about to break, or clothes than shrink after the first wash.
Many agencies are looking for nice shirts and golden buttons at rock bottom prices and do find them. That's the problem. But as I said before, the lower the prices go, the better in the long run because it will become absolutely impossible to work under such conditions and produce quality (just my theory).
Helena Chavarria wrote:
It's up to each one of us to decide where we want to situate our business: in the upper, middle or lower class areas. And it's up to the clients to decide where and how they want to spend their money.
I think that's an oversimplification. Why would any translator "choose" to work for bottom feeders? A little information can still go a long way. Desperation is not a healthy business attitude.
[Edited at 2016-03-08 02:53 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 19:42
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | Dealing with diversity | Mar 8, 2016 |
I think many translators are unable to deal adequately with the bewildering diversity in which translators come. Two were mentioned here - hobbyists and professionals, between these extremes, there is a whole sprectrum, who all have different approaches to issues like pricing, quality, professionalism, and other attributes of our profession.
The problem arises when we try to impose our category's views and norms on others, as these don't fit the requirements of others.
... See more I think many translators are unable to deal adequately with the bewildering diversity in which translators come. Two were mentioned here - hobbyists and professionals, between these extremes, there is a whole sprectrum, who all have different approaches to issues like pricing, quality, professionalism, and other attributes of our profession.
The problem arises when we try to impose our category's views and norms on others, as these don't fit the requirements of others.
To make matters worse for us, this site caters to two fundamentally different groups of users - translators and outsources. Like translators, the outsources too come in great diversity, from mom-and-pop shops to large multi-national translation behemoths that employ hundreds of staff, have multiple office locations and deal with thousands of freelancers. They all have different business models, and business practices.
The easiest solution is to accept this divesity and become adept at taking advantage of it and enjoying yourself in the process, rather than go on a missionary mode to change the world. The world, even in its micro version like this site, is too big for us to change.
May be Gandhiji's pithy dictum would be helpful to all of us. He said: Be the change that you would like to see in the world.
Being the astute observer of reality that he was, he never said: Change the world to how you would like to see it.
[Edited at 2016-03-09 02:30 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » With whom I identify as a Pro on Proz.com and why there is a general problem | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
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