| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Growing control of translation agencies Thread poster: Odile Breuvart
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| It's all about control | Mar 9, 2016 |
Don't let yourself be controlled by your clients.
You're the service provider, you issue the invoice and you must get paid according to your terms.
These so called convenient bells and whistles are nothing more than means to turn the tables on you and take the control over invoicing and paying YOU away from YOU.
I bet you won't get paid quickly, and the system can go bonkers (or so they'll claim) any day and open a can full of excuses why they can't or couldn't pay you. Patheti... See more Don't let yourself be controlled by your clients.
You're the service provider, you issue the invoice and you must get paid according to your terms.
These so called convenient bells and whistles are nothing more than means to turn the tables on you and take the control over invoicing and paying YOU away from YOU.
I bet you won't get paid quickly, and the system can go bonkers (or so they'll claim) any day and open a can full of excuses why they can't or couldn't pay you. Pathetic.
Stick with serious clients, not clowns.
[Edited at 2016-03-09 15:43 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Erik Freitag 
Germany
Local time: 01:55
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
| Roll reversal | Mar 9, 2016 |
Kevin Fulton wrote:
Put yourself in the place of the client with, e.g. 100 translators, each of whom submits an invoice every month in a different format with respect to both structure and document type (Word, Excel, PDF), each of which has to be manually entered into the agency's accounting system and retained for a specified period of time.
Sure, but this is a problem every business has to cope with, and guess what they do? They make sure they have the manpower required to do this job. What the agency wants is freeloading at my expense. They really should hire somebody. Good thing is, you can have this kind of clerical work done for an hourly rate of approx. 15% of what I get as a qualified translator.
Seriously, what do you think the agency would say if I asked them to do my taxes in return? Hey, it's just a couple of clicks away, you just need to enter the figures in the online forms of the tax office!
No, thank you. I do my business, you do yours.
I'm not at all against offering such systems, but by seeing them as a sine qua non, I'm afraid they might turn a substantial part of their precious translators away. I hope their "test panel" is large enough to cover that. ;-=
[Edited at 2016-03-09 16:25 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-03-09 17:30 GMT]
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 01:55
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Texte Style wrote:
it's that crazy I'm hoping I've misunderstood. You mean you get to pay them 1% of what they owe you for the privilege of doing their admin? and some test-panel translators were prepared to double that? do they get to do the admin twice as well? or do they have the privilege of doing admin that's twice as complicated or twice as finicky?
I haven't expressed myself very clearly, I'm sorry. The 1% is for the privilege to be paid for a job done at the beginning of the month after only 60 days (instead of 90 days, which would be free). So this is nothing to do with the introduction of the obligatory online invoicing system. The shoddy payment terms just came at the same time.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 19:55
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I don't understand... | Mar 9, 2016 |
If you use the agency's online invoicing system, then how do you insert your own payment terms and conditions as well as your payment deadline? Otherwise, the agency could just decide when they are going to pay. These things are not unilateral. You are free to set your own payment date on the invoice and demand payment on that date. (Of course, the agency is then free not to use your services in the future...)
I just received a letter from an agency that is (believe or not) having t... See more If you use the agency's online invoicing system, then how do you insert your own payment terms and conditions as well as your payment deadline? Otherwise, the agency could just decide when they are going to pay. These things are not unilateral. You are free to set your own payment date on the invoice and demand payment on that date. (Of course, the agency is then free not to use your services in the future...)
I just received a letter from an agency that is (believe or not) having trouble getting invoices from translators and has stated that if invoices are not received within 180 days, the payment will no longer be valid. I can't believe that this really a problem. I always send the invoice with each project. It takes less than a minute to create an invoice. Invoicing is my favorite part of the translation process.
The huge independent contractor vs. employee law suit in the United States is going to effect the translation industry. The more you set rates, set payment terms, track hours, dictate software requirements, etc, the more you start to look like an employer: http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_29607310/uber-driver-wins-unemployment-benefits
Back in the 1990s, several translators sued agencies for employee benefits because agencies were unilaterally dictating rates, payment terms, etc. For a long time after that, you had to send each agency business cards and proof of a separate business telephone line to prove your independent contractor status. Agencies were then cautious to always request your rates and terms. Twenty-five years later, all of this seems to have been forgotten (especially by a lot of the new "translation start-ups").
[Edited at 2016-03-09 18:32 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Kevin Fulton
United States
Local time: 19:55
German to English
| Tax form generation | Mar 9, 2016 |
Erik Freitag wrote:
Seriously, what do you think the agency would say if I asked them to do my taxes in return? Hey, it's just a couple of clicks away, you just need to enter the figures in the online forms of the tax office!
[Edited at 2016-03-09 16:25 GMT]
In the US, the automated system also automatically generates the tax reporting form (1099-Misc) for the freelancer.
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 01:55
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Kevin Fulton wrote: Erik Freitag wrote:
Seriously, what do you think the agency would say if I asked them to do my taxes in return? Hey, it's just a couple of clicks away, you just need to enter the figures in the online forms of the tax office!
[Edited at 2016-03-09 16:25 GMT] In the US, the automated system also automatically generates the tax reporting form (1099-Misc) for the freelancer.
That's great, but I'm afraid the German tax office couldn't care less about US tax forms.
| | | | | We are replaceable | Mar 9, 2016 |
I am the provider of the product, so I am the one to send an invoice, as is normal in the "real world". The problem here is that there are too many "translators", so if you don't agree with their M.O., they find somebody else. That is (unfortunately) the reality.
@ Erik
You "fired" an agency. Well put.
| | | | Kevin Fulton
United States
Local time: 19:55
German to English
| Large companies invoice each other via electronic systems | Mar 9, 2016 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
I am the one to send an invoice, as is normal in the "real world".
Hard copy (or electronic versions thereof) invoices are becoming a thing of the past, just like payment by check (except in the United States, and even that is thankfully going away for US-based translators). Translators in many parts of the world expect to be paid by direct deposit into their bank accounts, yet object when a client requests that an invoice be transmitted in a similar manner. After all, invoices aren't finely-crafted works of art like our translations, needing to be treated with the same loving respect. They only need to be paid on time.
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I have only worked for one agency that had automatic systems. In the beginning the owner or manager circumvented the system for me, eventually he disappeared or went into the woodworks and it stopped working altogether. Invoicing was only one part of it.
In regards to invoicing, as a freelancer I am not the employee for one single client. I need to keep track of the invoices I send and the payments that I receive from all my clients. I am not going to try to do that while workin... See more I have only worked for one agency that had automatic systems. In the beginning the owner or manager circumvented the system for me, eventually he disappeared or went into the woodworks and it stopped working altogether. Invoicing was only one part of it.
In regards to invoicing, as a freelancer I am not the employee for one single client. I need to keep track of the invoices I send and the payments that I receive from all my clients. I am not going to try to do that while working within umpteen systems by umpteen clients while simultaneously trying to keep track of my own lot.
In our work we have a varying and unpredictable workload for umpteen clients, and we need to produce a hand crafted precision product. Anything that causes confusion can compromise that. It also increases stress which is neither good for health, nor for work quality. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Digital invoices | Mar 10, 2016 |
Kevin Fulton wrote: Robert Rietvelt wrote:
I am the one to send an invoice, as is normal in the "real world". Hard copy (or electronic versions thereof) invoices are becoming a thing of the past, just like payment by check (except in the United States, and even that is thankfully going away for US-based translators). Translators in many parts of the world expect to be paid by direct deposit into their bank accounts, yet object when a client requests that an invoice be transmitted in a similar manner. After all, invoices aren't finely-crafted works of art like our translations, needing to be treated with the same loving respect. They only need to be paid on time.
Just to clarify - I've been sending invoices via email ever since I started. No problem. Currently as PDFs.
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 01:55
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
| Invoices won't disappear for a long time - and comparison to banking | Mar 10, 2016 |
Kevin Fulton wrote:
Hard copy (or electronic versions thereof) invoices are becoming a thing of the past
I don't know about the US, but at least in Europe, I don't expect invoices to become a thing of the past in my lifetime.
Kevin Fulton wrote:
Translators in many parts of the world expect to be paid by direct deposit into their bank accounts, yet object when a client requests that an invoice be transmitted in a similar manner.
I think your comparison is invalid. The equivalent to bank deposits would be sending invoices per email, which is what most of us do anyway.
If you want to compare these online invoicing schemes with payment procedures, I'd say that the equivalent in banking terms would be that we as translators demand (!) agencies to agree to a direct debiting scheme instead of their transferring the invoice amount to the translator's account.
Kevin Fulton wrote:
After all, invoices aren't finely-crafted works of art like our translations, needing to be treated with the same loving respect. They only need to be paid on time.
Again, this may be different in the US, but at least in Europe, there's a lot more to an invoice. It needs to comply with a whole bunch of very strict national and EU regulations. They are the basis for accounting (possibly this is what the 1099-misc form you referred to does in the US).
[Edited at 2016-03-10 06:52 GMT]
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Robert Rietvelt wrote: @ Erik You "fired" an agency. Well put.
Sooner or later they will contact you anyway and accept your payment terms. Perhaps not as regular as they did before, but they will. And with the "1%" something different came to my mind:
http://pics.patches.cc/biker/81NRC1PromilleSkull_big_81_diamond_patch.jpg
Perhaps you are now allowed to put this sign as a badge on your proz profile 
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 01:55
French to English
| No I don't see why I should put myself in the place of the client. | Mar 10, 2016 |
Kevin Fulton wrote:
Put yourself in the place of the client with, e.g. 100 translators, each of whom submits an invoice every month in a different format with respect to both structure and document type (Word, Excel, PDF), each of which has to be manually entered into the agency's accounting system and retained for a specified period of time. An automated system takes care of this in one step, while providing a means to supply the tax authorities with fiscal information in an acceptable format. To be honest, I'm surprised that more agencies haven't put an automated system in place.
No I don't see why I should put myself in the place of the client.
These agencies also have other suppliers (for computers, internet services, tea, coffee...). Do they all have to kowtow to their bullying system? I bet they all have different invoicing formats too.
Why not put yourself in the place of the translator with e.g. 100 clients, each of whom has a different setup and a different format and structure and document type, each of which has to be manually entered into the agencies' accounting system and retained for a specified period of time?
What other industry makes the supplier fit into the customer's system?
| | | | | The same here | Mar 10, 2016 |
I completely agree with Maxi Schwarz. Anything that causes confusion can compromise the precision of the "hand crafted product" and definitely increases stress - a very disadvantageous situation indeed.
Maxi Schwarz wrote:
I have only worked for one agency that had automatic systems. In the beginning the owner or manager circumvented the system for me, eventually he disappeared or went into the woodworks and it stopped working altogether. Invoicing was only one part of it.
In regards to invoicing, as a freelancer I am not the employee for one single client. I need to keep track of the invoices I send and the payments that I receive from all my clients. I am not going to try to do that while working within umpteen systems by umpteen clients while simultaneously trying to keep track of my own lot.
In our work we have a varying and unpredictable workload for umpteen clients, and we need to produce a hand crafted precision product. Anything that causes confusion can compromise that. It also increases stress which is neither good for health, nor for work quality.
| | | | | Applicable law | Mar 10, 2016 |
Erik Freitag wrote:
That's great, but I'm afraid the German tax office couldn't care less about US tax forms.
Precisely.
Some clients expect me to do something in their management system when I submit MY invoice.
Any time a client comes with this request i.e. have their system generate my invoice, I tell them I have to submit to Romanian laws, MY invoice has to contain the details the law applicable to ME requires. And because I would have to issue my own invoice anyway, I'd have to charge them extra for this administrative hassle which falls outside the scope of "reasonable". They usually backed down at this point and accepted my invoice. I offer them to include any other details they want (some clients were OK with that).
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