| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | "Professional human translators" or crowdsourcing gone bad? Thread poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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Also from page 269 of the Ortografía:
Los casos reales en los que se produce una ambigüedad que el contexto comunicativo no es capaz de despejar son raros y rebuscados, y siempre pueden resolverse por otros medios, como el empleo de sinónimos (solamente o únicamente, en el caso del adverbio solo), una puntuación adecuada, la inclusión de algún elemento que impida el doble sentido o un cambio en el orden de palabras que fuerce una sola de las interpretaciones. En todo caso, estas posibles ambigüedades nunca son superiores en número ni más graves que las que producen los numerosísimos casos de homonima y polisemia léxica que hay en la lengua.
To sum up, the only reason to defend the use of the accent in "solo" today, after the very solid reasons given in the Ortografía against its use, is "mala follá" (an expression that could be defined as something like "delight in antagonising your peers") or defense of the good old times when faced with modern, well-reasoned approaches to things.
In any case, this is not the matter of the forum, which really refers to an agency boasting of professionality with copy plagued with mistakes.
| | | | | No need to get personal | Mar 17, 2016 |
Is your comment in line with the forum rules?
| | | | | More antagonists | Mar 17, 2016 |
Diego Moreno, editor de Nórdica:
«Al principio decidimos seguir la norma de la RAE, pero desde enero de 2013 hemos vuelto a poner el acento porque quitarlo era como empobrecer la lengua».
Carlos Pardo, escritor:
«Estoy a favor de acentuarlo porque es necesario para no caer en la ambigüedad. Quitarlo limita el lenguaje a un intercambio de información».
Laura Fernández, escritora:
«La sigo usando porque no hacerlo se me hace raro. Si no la pongo... See more Diego Moreno, editor de Nórdica:
«Al principio decidimos seguir la norma de la RAE, pero desde enero de 2013 hemos vuelto a poner el acento porque quitarlo era como empobrecer la lengua».
Carlos Pardo, escritor:
«Estoy a favor de acentuarlo porque es necesario para no caer en la ambigüedad. Quitarlo limita el lenguaje a un intercambio de información».
Laura Fernández, escritora:
«La sigo usando porque no hacerlo se me hace raro. Si no la pongo, tengo la sensación de que no es la misma palabra, que estoy traicionándola».
Sergio del Molino, escritor:
«Yo no sólo pongo la tilde diacrítica, sino que pido a todos los editores de mis libros que me la respeten en los textos. A veces lo hacen, y otras no».
Jorge Eduardo Benavides, escritor:
«No soy muy purista en ese tema. Creo que el lenguaje va evolucionando, pero respeto mucho cómo me han enseñado a escribir y así uso la gramática».
Pere Gimferrer, escritor y académico:
«Al igual que Javier Marías y Arturo Pérez-Reverte, yo he mantenido la tilde en mi escritura. En mis últimos libros sigo escribiendo sólo con acento».
Miqui Otero, escritor:
«Yo suelo escribir sólo con tupé en la O. Me lo enseñaron así en el Cole Salesiano y hay cuestiones (y culpas) de las que cuesta desprenderse».
Carlos Zanón, escritor:
«La seguí usando. Fiel a esa tilde, porque básicamente esa regla que aprendí de memoria se me marcó a fuego y la veo útil para evitar confusiones».
Patricio Pron, escritor:
«Me parece consecuente con la política de la RAE, que consiste en que algo deja de ser un error cuando la suficiente cantidad de personas lo comete».
Carmen Camacho, poeta:
«De los recortes aplicados en diacríticas, la tilde de solo es de la que más me duele desprenderme y a duras penas lo hago. Tantas satisfacciones que me dio».
Jenn Díaz, escritora:
«Sólo con que en una frase el sólo y el solo puedan confundirse, debería acentuarse siempre. Es más fácil cambiar el diccionario que la sociedad».
Jorge Carrión, escritor:
«Yo seguí fiel al acento, a sabiendas de que era posible que las editoriales me corrigieran. Al recibir la corrección, lo hice con una sonrisa».
Salvador Gutiérrez, académico de la RAE:
«No hay una presión de la Academia en contra de los escritores. No pertenece a la tilde diacrítica, pero que la usen si quieren, no les vamos a penalizar». ▲ Collapse
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Of course, writers (being artists) are entitled to spelling the way they like, or can even fully de-automate their language to create new language or effects or to reveal the full force of a language. However, our role as translators is very different: we have to convey the full meaning and effect of a text. That means that, unless the source text shows odd characteristics for pragmatic or creative reasons, our target text should follow the current spelling rules.
Of course spelling... See more Of course, writers (being artists) are entitled to spelling the way they like, or can even fully de-automate their language to create new language or effects or to reveal the full force of a language. However, our role as translators is very different: we have to convey the full meaning and effect of a text. That means that, unless the source text shows odd characteristics for pragmatic or creative reasons, our target text should follow the current spelling rules.
Of course spelling rules have a component of convention, and conventions change with time. We have to adapt to conventions as they evolve, and produce a text that is correct in grammar and spelling at the moment of the translation. As prescriptive as this may sound, and as unwelcome prescriptive approaches sometimes are, this is what is taught at every translation school nowadays.
Again, this could lead to a lengthy discussion that would be beyond the matter of this topic, i.e. how you cannot boast of your quality in translation with spelling mistakes and poor translation.
[Edited at 2016-03-17 18:58 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Robert Forstag 
United States
Local time: 20:46
Spanish to English
+ ...
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote: Robert Forstag wrote: Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Inga Petkelyte wrote:
Tomás, what is wrong in this:
"Si eres un traductor, por favor.." How should it be? Good question. Gramatically "traductor" is an abbreviated nominal group, or "grupo nominal escueto" in Spanish. Basically, if the reality designated by the word is contrued as an indeterminate/unnumbered type or class, the determiner is suppressed. Some more examples are: - "No tiene monedas." (as opposed to "*No tiene unos/algunos monedas") - "Son artistas." ("*Son unos/algunos artistas"; "Son unos artistas" would be correct, but the meaning would be completely different: you would convey that some people who are not professional artists show the qualities of artists in some respect.) - "Se pasa el día leyendo novelas" ("*Se pasa el día leyendo unas/algunas novelas") You can read in detail about this in article 15.6 "La ausencia del artículo: los grupos nominales sin determinante" in the Nueva gramática de la lengua española, Manual by the Association of Spanish Language Academies (ISBN 9788467032819), a very good resource any Spanish professional translator should always have at hand. Using "un traductor" in a supposedly professional translation is pretty bad. It would be the rough equivalent of something like, "she gave him some advices" in an into-English translation. The kind of thing that makes one wince. If nothing else, it would be expected for such a glaring error to have been noticed and corrected in the proofreading process. As for "sólo" vs. "solo", or "guión" vs. "guion," it seems that there are a lot of educated native Spanish speakers that still use the older and now officially disapproved forms. So I would not necessarily categorize such usage as "atrocious." Still, the kinds of errors Tomás cites here places such material outside of the realm of what can reasonably be considered a "professional" translation. [Edited at 2016-03-17 15:09 GMT] Regarding solo: "a partir de ahora se podrá prescindir de la tilde en estas formas...". It is just a recommendation.
Thank you for the clarification.
It is certainly clear that passions run high about these matters among native Spanish speakers.... 
| | | | | All reforms raise resistance | Mar 17, 2016 |
Robert Forstag wrote: It is certainly clear that passions run high about these matters among native Spanish speakers....
Of course! But not only in the case of Spanish. Think of the spelling reform in German not that long ago. It was huge compared to the very modest reforms carried out by the RAE, and it meant a huge cost and effort for all parties.
Although very many people were discontent with the reform in German or found it plain outrageous, today all that noise has disappeared and people use the new spelling rules very happily, enjoying its benefits. The same will happen in Spain, especially if we think that adding the accent where it goes against reason and general rules and serves no purpose means an extra effort that we could devote to more useful purposes.
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 02:46
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
| "Oh, Sólo Mío" | Mar 18, 2016 |
Leaving opera aside, the problem with this OT, as usual, is a bunch of people (called members of the RAE) who spend a considerable amount of time, effort and (presumably our) money to fix what ain't broke.
I personally use and will continue to use accents on sólo, guión and am among the vast majority of people who couldn't give a puck about the DRAE's opinion regarding anything.
(After all, has anyone here ever written "whisky" as "güisqui"? No, I thought not).
... See more Leaving opera aside, the problem with this OT, as usual, is a bunch of people (called members of the RAE) who spend a considerable amount of time, effort and (presumably our) money to fix what ain't broke.
I personally use and will continue to use accents on sólo, guión and am among the vast majority of people who couldn't give a puck about the DRAE's opinion regarding anything.
(After all, has anyone here ever written "whisky" as "güisqui"? No, I thought not).
On the other hand, Tomás is, of course, 100% right about the awesome awfulness of the Spanish.
Whoever wrote that piece ought to be taken out and shot.
This drivel is especially galling when they're actually boasting about their ability to provide "precisión de la traducción". It's a joke. And it makes them look like a joke.
"Trabajando con una de las redes lingüisticas más grandes del mundo, XXX ofrece traducciones humanas y profesional en más de 100 idiomas."
Please...if that's the best your "human" translators can manage, Skynet, it's your turn...... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 02:46
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Do they really? | Mar 18, 2016 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
All professional translators know and follow the new spelling, even if we do not necessarily agree with the changes, as we all believe in, and benefit from, the existence of a unified language.
Do all Spanish newspapers etc use the same spelling rules?
Do all Spanish translators know all the new rules, and do they really all use these rules? Or do some of them fly by the seat of their pants, and keep writing the way they wrote in school?
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| Off-topic: If they do not, they (probably) should... | Mar 18, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Do all Spanish newspapers etc use the same spelling rules?
Do all Spanish translators know all the new rules, and do they really all use these rules? Or do some of them fly by the seat of their pants, and keep writing the way they wrote in school?
Yes, I think newspapers and professional proofreaders all use the new rules.
As for translators, I like to think that all of them know the new rules or have shown some interest in them. To me, this is very much a question of what makes us resist to change, even when it is clearly justified and explained. Is it really that we feel that the old rules are more correct, or is it that we want to avoid the effort of adapting?
I found it very hard indeed to get rid of the accent in "solo." It took me many months, and I even had to punish myself for every violation by putting a euro in a jar, etc. Now I am happy I "turned" when it comes to spelling. Not only do I comply with widely accepted rules agreed by all Spanish-language academies, but also save the effort of adding the accent...
It would be interesting to know how many translators still use "sólo" and their age. I fall more on the oldie group, and suspect that the younger generation find it easier to adapt to the new rules.
| | | | | The thing is | Mar 18, 2016 |
Andy Watkinson wrote:
Leaving opera aside, the problem with this OT, as usual, is a bunch of people (called members of the RAE) who spend a considerable amount of time, effort and (presumably our) money to fix what ain't broke.
I personally use and will continue to use accents on sólo, guión and am among the vast majority of people who couldn't give a puck about the DRAE's opinion regarding anything.
(After all, has anyone here ever written "whisky" as "güisqui"? No, I thought not).
On the other hand, Tomás is, of course, 100% right about the awesome awfulness of the Spanish.
Whoever wrote that piece ought to be taken out and shot.
This drivel is especially galling when they're actually boasting about their ability to provide "precisión de la traducción". It's a joke. And it makes them look like a joke.
"Trabajando con una de las redes lingüisticas más grandes del mundo, XXX ofrece traducciones humanas y profesional en más de 100 idiomas."
Please...if that's the best your "human" translators can manage, Skynet, it's your turn......
that some of those academics use sólo, like Javier Marías (for example), who, by the way, ticks all the boxes: he is an academic, a writer and an awarded translator: http://www.rae.es/academicos/javier-marias
| | | | | Off-topic: Writers and translators | Mar 18, 2016 |
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote: some of those academics use sólo, like Javier Marías (for example), who, by the way, ticks all the boxes: he is an academic, a writer and an awarded translator: http://www.rae.es/academicos/javier-marias
I think I have said this already in this forum, but writers are entitled to doing what they feel is best for their artistic work. We translators have other tasks and, unless the source text has special characteristics for some reason that would require similarly special features on our end, are supposed to follow the current spelling rules, even if we disagree.
| | | | | He is also a translator | Mar 18, 2016 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: Alvaro Espantaleon wrote: some of those academics use sólo, like Javier Marías (for example), who, by the way, ticks all the boxes: he is an academic, a writer and an awarded translator: http://www.rae.es/academicos/javier-marias I think I have said this already in this forum, but writers are entitled to doing what they feel is best for their artistic work. We translators have other tasks and, unless the source text has special characteristics for some reason that would require similarly special features on our end, are supposed to follow the current spelling rules, even if we disagree.
Javier Marías is indeed a translator and doesn't follow YOUR rule. Plus you don't represent "translators". We translators? Speak for yourself.
[Edited at 2016-03-18 13:52 GMT]
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| Off-topic: Open another forum? | Mar 18, 2016 |
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
Javier Marias is indeed a translator and doesn't follow YOUR rule. Plus you don't represent "translators". We translators? Speak for yourself.
(Obviously I do not decide spelling rules. I follow them for the sake of unity of our language, which has a value in itself.)
Álvaro, I would encourage you to open another forum on the matter of "solo"/"sólo." It is apparent that you feel strongly about that and I reckon the discussion in a separate forum could be interesting. This forum is clearly not about "solo"/"sólo" in the first place. Thank you!
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I've considered using 'human translator' as my job title. At least on my own website. The human-vs-machine thing is worth exploring as a marketing trope.
Outsourcing is broken. Crowdsourcing is brokener.
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