| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | TM Town... and what if you only work with clients' TM's? Thread poster: Arjan van den Berg
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| Are you sure? | Jul 11, 2016 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
... keep in mind that a standard legal document, embodied in a standard translation memory file (.tmx), after being run through the Deshi desktop application, would consist of little more than a pure text file (.txt) containing a list of extracted terms such as this:
1. terms and conditions
2. clause
3. the foregoing
4. parties
5. laws and legislation
6. contractor
7. client
Are you sure about this?
All the .town files I've checked consist of single words (not compounds), separated by a comma and enclosed in quotes (as mentioned in a previous post here).
| | | | | Deshi maybe solves the confidentiality issue but not the problem I stated in my first post | Jul 11, 2016 |
When I work directly on my clients' server there is no way I would be able (if I would want to) to create a TM with only segments translated by me. I would be able to filter an offline client TM on segments translated only by me, (zero percent matches), but I kind of suspect that my clients won't be happy with that either.
| | | | Michael Beijer 
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:53
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| That was just by way of example. | Jul 11, 2016 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote: Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
... keep in mind that a standard legal document, embodied in a standard translation memory file (.tmx), after being run through the Deshi desktop application, would consist of little more than a pure text file (.txt) containing a list of extracted terms such as this:
1. terms and conditions
2. clause
3. the foregoing
4. parties
5. laws and legislation
6. contractor
7. client
Are you sure about this? All the .town files I've checked consist of single words (not compounds), separated by a comma and enclosed in quotes (as mentioned in a previous post here).
I didn't bother to check the exact format (as I did the first, second, etc., time I answered this same old boring question, every time it popped up its identical head in these forums). I'll leave that to the people who think they have stumbled on a Great Big Problem With Confidentiality. As there is none, I am less and less interested in explaining it all to people over and over. It's very easy for people to shout "breach!", but I wish these same people would actually go through the trouble of researching what they are claiming.
The point is, Deshi files are just lists of isolated terms, and therefore in no way constitute a breach of confidentiality. Yawn.
Michael
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:53
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Arjan van den Berg wrote:
When I work directly on my clients' server there is no way I would be able (if I would want to) to create a TM with only segments translated by me. I would be able to filter an offline client TM on segments translated only by me, (zero percent matches), but I kind of suspect that my clients won't be happy with that either.
Since I refuse to work on anyone's server, or with online CAT tools of any kind, I have no experience with such things.
I'm not sure what you mean by "I would be able to filter an offline client TM on segments translated only by me, (zero percent matches)" Could you explain what you mean by that?
Michael
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| According to the site's own description, there is breach of confidentiality | Jul 11, 2016 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
I'll leave that to the people who think they have stumbled on a Great Big Problem With Confidentiality. As there is none, I am less and less interested in explaining it all to people over and over. It's very easy for people to shout "breach!", but I wish these same people would actually go through the trouble of researching what they are claiming.
The point is, Deshi files are just lists of isolated terms, and therefore in no way constitute a breach of confidentiality. Yawn.
Michael
Well, I went to the trouble of reading what the site itself says. Here it is again, since you just ignored it the first time. Yawn:
https://www.tm-town.com/about :
"Translators don't just say what they can do, they show it -- by uploading their previous work."
"To appear in the list of translators in a certain area of expertise, you register and upload a previous translation that you have performed in that area."
https://www.tm-town.com/getting-started :
"Apart from filling in the above information, the most important action you can take to improve your profile is to load work into TM-Town's system. On TM-Town, translators don't just say what they can do, they show it by loading in examples of translation work they have done."
It's possible there is a way to generate keywords lists that do not breach confidentiality, but one would still need to verify such lists carefully before uploading them. But what the site describes above does look very much like breach of confidentiality to me. Yawn.
Something else is it could discourage certain clients to appear on that site, as some might ask the question: “so is he going to upload our confidential documents too?” Because that’s what the general description tells translators to do.
| | | | | Confidentiality | Jul 11, 2016 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
I didn't bother to check the exact format (as I did the first, second, etc., time I answered this same old boring question, every time it popped up its identical head in these forums). I'll leave that to the people who think they have stumbled on a Great Big Problem With Confidentiality. As there is none, I am less and less interested in explaining it all to people over and over. It's very easy for people to shout "breach!", but I wish these same people would actually go through the trouble of researching what they are claiming.
The point is, Deshi files are just lists of isolated terms, and therefore in no way constitute a breach of confidentiality. Yawn.
As I noticed you replied time and time again to similar posts complaining about confidentiality issues on TMT I just thought it would be something worth mentioning, as isolated words should be even less "confidential" than compound terms...
And here we could start debating about how useful a list of isolated (source) terms actually is for matching and finding "the best experts for your job", but let's save this for another day/thread...
| | | | | NDA terms + contents of the uploaded files | Jul 11, 2016 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
It's possible there is a way to generate keywords lists that do not breach confidentiality, but one would still need to verify such lists carefully before uploading them. But what the site describes above does look very much like breach of confidentiality to me.
Regardless of the marketing copy on their website, I think what's important (as you yourself wrote) is to check the files you're actually uploading, together with the terms of your NDAs.
Here's the page about Deshi, in case you're actually interested: https://www.tm-town.com/desktop-application
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Hi Michael,
I think I can. When I receive a TM it contains segments of several translators. To create my 'own' TM I would have to filter on my name and on segments that were before I started 0% matches. (I've got no idea how to filter on my name, but as TM's contain this information, it should be possible somehow). In this way I would be able to create a TM with segments only created by me.
Quite cumbersome with offline TM's and probably impossible with TM's on the client's se... See more Hi Michael,
I think I can. When I receive a TM it contains segments of several translators. To create my 'own' TM I would have to filter on my name and on segments that were before I started 0% matches. (I've got no idea how to filter on my name, but as TM's contain this information, it should be possible somehow). In this way I would be able to create a TM with segments only created by me.
Quite cumbersome with offline TM's and probably impossible with TM's on the client's server.
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote: Arjan van den Berg wrote:
When I work directly on my clients' server there is no way I would be able (if I would want to) to create a TM with only segments translated by me. I would be able to filter an offline client TM on segments translated only by me, (zero percent matches), but I kind of suspect that my clients won't be happy with that either. Since I refuse to work on anyone's server, or with online CAT tools of any kind, I have no experience with such things. I'm not sure what you mean by " I would be able to filter an offline client TM on segments translated only by me, (zero percent matches)" Could you explain what you mean by that? Michael ▲ Collapse
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Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:53
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
First of all, the site started without Deshi, which is why a lot of the website copy mentions uploading your TMs, rather than uploading your Desh files. Every time it says sth like "by uploading their previous work", read: "by uploading their previous work, either as a TMX, or a Deshi file". Also note that it only says you must "(up)load your work". It doesn't specify in which format. For the purposes of their matching system, it is irrelevant whether you (up)load your past work as... See more First of all, the site started without Deshi, which is why a lot of the website copy mentions uploading your TMs, rather than uploading your Desh files. Every time it says sth like "by uploading their previous work", read: "by uploading their previous work, either as a TMX, or a Deshi file". Also note that it only says you must "(up)load your work". It doesn't specify in which format. For the purposes of their matching system, it is irrelevant whether you (up)load your past work as a .tmx TM or a Desh .txt file. Thus [see my additions in bold below]:
Thomas T. Frost wrote: Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
I'll leave that to the people who think they have stumbled on a Great Big Problem With Confidentiality. As there is none, I am less and less interested in explaining it all to people over and over. It's very easy for people to shout "breach!", but I wish these same people would actually go through the trouble of researching what they are claiming.
The point is, Deshi files are just lists of isolated terms, and therefore in no way constitute a breach of confidentiality. Yawn.
Michael Well, I went to the trouble of reading what the site itself says. Here it is again, since you just ignored it the first time. Yawn: https://www.tm-town.com/about : "Translators don't just say what they can do, they show it -- by uploading their previous work." "To appear in the list of translators in a certain area of expertise, you register and upload a previous translation that you have performed in that area [i.e., either as a TMX, or a Deshi file]." https://www.tm-town.com/getting-started : "Apart from filling in the above information, the most important action you can take to improve your profile is to load work into TM-Town's system [i.e., either as a TMX, or a Deshi file]. On TM-Town, translators don't just say what they can do, they show it by loading in examples of translation work they have done [i.e., either as a TMX, or a Deshi file]." It's possible there is a way to generate keywords lists that do not breach confidentiality, but one would still need to verify such lists carefully before uploading them. [Indeed, if you were worried about confidentiality, you would probably want to have a look in the file.] But what the site describes above does look very much like breach of confidentiality to me. Yawn. [No, it doesn't. And I have explained this at great length in past posts and forums. At any rate, you contend that uploading a TM to TM-Town constitutes a breach of some imagined NDA. I disagree. The system is secure and sufficiently protected from prying eyes. If you use email of any kind to send and receive client data (and who doesn't?), and don't think said email constitutes a breach of some imagined NDA, you should have no problem with TM-Town. I have no problem with it. The same applies to Dropbox. The data security measures in place at companies like Dropbox, Google, etc. are way better than those of your average freelance translator.] Something else is it could discourage certain clients to appear on that site, as some might ask the question: “so is he going to upload our confidential documents too?” Because that’s what the general description tells translators to do.
Michael ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:53
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| Thanks for the info Arjan! | Jul 11, 2016 |
Arjan van den Berg wrote: Hi Michael, I think I can. When I receive a TM it contains segments of several translators. To create my 'own' TM I would have to filter on my name and on segments that were before I started 0% matches. (I've got no idea how to filter on my name, but as TM's contain this information, it should be possible somehow). In this way I would be able to create a TM with segments only created by me. Quite cumbersome with offline TM's and probably impossible with TM's on the client's server. Michael J.W. Beijer wrote: Arjan van den Berg wrote:
When I work directly on my clients' server there is no way I would be able (if I would want to) to create a TM with only segments translated by me. I would be able to filter an offline client TM on segments translated only by me, (zero percent matches), but I kind of suspect that my clients won't be happy with that either. Since I refuse to work on anyone's server, or with online CAT tools of any kind, I have no experience with such things. I'm not sure what you mean by " I would be able to filter an offline client TM on segments translated only by me, (zero percent matches)" Could you explain what you mean by that? Michael
Aha, so you are saying that the companies you work for using their online CAT tools allow you to download a TM, which includes (1) the work of others, and (b) your own work. If this is the case, it ought to be relatively simple to create a subset containing just your own work, which, incidentally, might even be useful for other purposes, e.g. if you wished to maintain a master TM of all the work you do in online CAT tools on your own computer.
I've never tried it, but I think memoQ can do the above (as explained by Kevin Lossner on his blog @ http://www.translationtribulations.com/2013/08/memoquickie-exporting-tmx-from-memoq.html ), and maybe also Heartsome's TMX editor and/or Olifant (both open source and free). If not, I'm sure someone could write a little script to do it quote easily.
Michael
[Edited at 2016-07-11 18:45 GMT]
| | | | | At any rate... | Jul 11, 2016 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
At any rate, you contend that uploading a TM to TM-Town constitutes a breach of some imagined NDA. I disagree. The system is secure and sufficiently protected from prying eyes. If you use email of any kind to send and receive client data (and who doesn't?), and don't think said email constitutes a breach of some imagined NDA, you should have no problem with TM-Town.
... there's a certain difference between a client sending you their "confidential material" through e-mail, so that you can work on it (and send it back the same way the client chose) and you uploading that material to a third party website for reasons that have nothing to do with the performance of your services to the client...
Usually NDAs (not "imagined", but real) state something along the lines of "X agrees not to disclose any Confidential Information to third parties...", so it's a matter of defining what is to be considered "Confidential Information", rather than saying that you can do whatever you want because Dropbox, Google, TM-Town or whatever are more secure than your own hard drive...
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Mirko Mainardi wrote: Regardless of the marketing copy on their website, I think what's important (as you yourself wrote) is to check the files you're actually uploading, together with the terms of your NDAs. Here's the page about Deshi, in case you're actually interested: https://www.tm-town.com/desktop-application
I had a quick look at the link, thanks. That does solve the confidentiality problem.
But as I do a good part of my work in Memsource, I have no corresponding TM to analyse, what this work is concerned.
So I could use Deshi for the rest, but as long as the site says "upload your TMs" (i.e. implying 'breach your NDAs and other confidentiality obligations'), I won't use the site, as potential clients of the type I'm interested in might wonder whether their confidential documents will end up on that site too.
Another problem, as others have pointed out, is that a word analysis says nothing about the quality of the translation, how specialised the translator is, and the translator's behaviour. So maybe my conclusion is that the type of client who is interested in such a site is not the type of client I'm interested in.
There is a saying that goes, very simply: “people do business with people” (with various endings). That sums it up quite nicely.
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Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:53
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| To breach, or not breach, that is the question! | Jul 11, 2016 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote: Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
At any rate, you contend that uploading a TM to TM-Town constitutes a breach of some imagined NDA. I disagree. The system is secure and sufficiently protected from prying eyes. If you use email of any kind to send and receive client data (and who doesn't?), and don't think said email constitutes a breach of some imagined NDA, you should have no problem with TM-Town.
... there's a certain difference between a client sending you their "confidential material" through e-mail, so that you can work on it (and send it back the same way the client chose) and you uploading that material to a third party website for reasons that have nothing to do with the performance of your services to the client... Usually NDAs (not "imagined", but real) state something along the lines of "X agrees not to disclose any Confidential Information to third parties...", so it's a matter of defining what is to be considered "Confidential Information", rather than saying that you can do whatever you want because Dropbox, Google, TM-Town or whatever are more secure than your own hard drive...
Yes, there is a certain difference. However, as I see it, what matters is whether the data can fall into the wrong hands or not. What matters is if someone can prove, in a court of law, that you acted irresponsibly, and allowed your client's data to fall into the wrong hands. Being processed by the automated systems of Google/Gmail/Dropbox is one thing, and third parties actually getting their hands on the data (i.e., an actual human being reading your client's data you have stored on Dropbox or the TM-Town server, and then selling the actual data to a third party) is another altogether.
Also, the whole issue is not exactly black and white. For example, is storing your work data in Dropbox (or another cloud storage system) in breach, or not? Some people might use TM-Town primarily to store their TMs (e.g. accessing them via an API in a CAT tool) – so the main reason for use would be similar to Dropbox – but might then inadvertently also end up creeping up in TM-Town's ranking.
However, I agree, we would have to define what "Confidential Information" is, in a specific NDA.
What I would like to see is someone citing an actual, real-world NDA, and showing specific clauses which mention the data we customarily work with as translators and how services such as Gmail, Dropbox, TM-Town, etc. relate to it.
Or, if you can't be bothered with all this nonsense, just use Deshi and forget about it 
Michael
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Thomas T. Frost wrote:
But as I do a good part of my work in Memsource, I have no corresponding TM to analyse, what this work is concerned.
Memsource Editor should allow you to export (m)xliff files, which in turn should be easily convertible to TMs or even directly analyzable by Deshi (just renaming them to xliff).
So I could use Deshi for the rest, but as long as the site says "upload your TMs" (i.e. implying 'breach your NDAs and other confidentiality obligations'), I won't use the site, as potential clients of the type I'm interested in might wonder whether their confidential documents will end up on that site too.
Yes, in fact that might be a reason for concern (even if ultimately unfounded)...
Another problem, as others have pointed out, is that a word analysis says nothing about the quality of the translation, how specialised the translator is, and the translator's behaviour.
I'm one of those "others" myself.
So maybe my conclusion is that the type of client who is interested in such a site is not the type of client I'm interested in.
I take confidentiality very seriously (as explained here as well), and I think that TM-Town is just another means of advertising your services, which is why I signed up there, even though I don't agree with how it works.
As for clients, I'm not entirely sure they would know exactly what they're doing when searching on TM-Town, also seeing the kind of advertising they're using (like the already mentioned "find the best experts for your job", or "find the best translator for your content", etc...). Also, I would expect end-clients to be more attracted to that type of service and promotional fluff than agencies...
| | | | | How is the Deshi score really determined? | Jul 12, 2016 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote: Mirko Mainardi wrote: Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
... keep in mind that a standard legal document, embodied in a standard translation memory file (.tmx), after being run through the Deshi desktop application, would consist of little more than a pure text file (.txt) containing a list of extracted terms such as this:
1. terms and conditions
2. clause
3. the foregoing
4. parties
5. laws and legislation
6. contractor
7. client
Are you sure about this? All the .town files I've checked consist of single words (not compounds), separated by a comma and enclosed in quotes (as mentioned in a previous post here). I didn't bother to check the exact format (as I did the first, second, etc., time I answered this same old boring question, every time it popped up its identical head in these forums). I'll leave that to the people who think they have stumbled on a Great Big Problem With Confidentiality. As there is none, I am less and less interested in explaining it all to people over and over. It's very easy for people to shout "breach!", but I wish these same people would actually go through the trouble of researching what they are claiming. The point is, Deshi files are just lists of isolated terms, and therefore in no way constitute a breach of confidentiality. Yawn. Michael
It's called TM town and you are welcome to upload TMs but you don't have to, right? Instead, you have your TM's analyzed offline and the result is a text file that contains only single words separated by quotation marks from the English source texts (or possibly source texts in other languages?)
Question:
TM's are being used by the Deshi software to create a list of specific words, i.e. source words that appeared in a TM. But how does the target text really figure in the Deshi score other than it is assumed that the source words were all translated without any evidence of how good or bad the target text really is?
I didn't see that procedure explained on TM-Town.
See also:
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_translator_coop/300979-complimentary_tm_town_membership_for_prozcom_members-page8.html#2546545
(Quote:)
"A Deshi .town file includes only terms from the source segments of the TM. ..." (Unquote)
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_translator_coop/300979-complimentary_tm_town_membership_for_prozcom_members-page8.html#2546968
(Quote:)
"Currently we take no stand on the quality of any uploaded work. Instead what we aim to do is give a client or visitor browsing a translator's profile on TM-Town other criteria and heuristics from which they can gather evidence of that translator's ability to produce a quality translation. These include:
- Years of experience
- Education
- Associations and Memberships
- Certified Pro Status
- KudoZ points
- WWA feedback
- CAT tools used
- Links to other translation portal profiles
- Sample translations ..." (Unquote)
According to the second quote above concerning the quality of any uploaded work, it's not possible to judge the quality of a TM by using the Deshi software. I understand that when a profile looks good, one could argue that if "term", "conditions" and other words occur 20,000 times in the Deshi score, the translator could probably be a great translator, but he/she could also just be desperate to have such a score to bolster that claim. Problem is that what is really new with regard to TM-Town is, as the name says, the use of TM content. I got the impression that TM's or at least the concept of TM are/is clearly used to promote the "best experts" and it's kind of implied that that has a lot to do with the Deshi score. But it's not really the TM that's used I suppose, just the source words, and, in addition, the simple fact that certain translators agreeing that source words "count as TM's or TM content" isn't really purposeful I would hold. But that's not the main problem. I think the name TM-Town implies how important the examination and "scoring"of these TM's is, even though we can see above (first quote) that (please correct me if I am wrong) it is about counting the occurrence of source words from TMs (besides the fact that it implies that translators are willing to have their TM's examined and scores about them published). Thus, so far, I don't see why I should try to compete there. That some prospective clients might think they will find the best language experts on TM-Town because of the additional new factor TM seems possible, since it is really kind of implied.
Should I now be concerned about losing business to colleagues on TM-Town that distinguish themselves from me through their Deshi score? So far I am not concerned. But I am not really happy with the implications and some of the marketing.
[Edited at 2016-07-12 14:15 GMT]
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