| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | ProZ.com user vs ProZ.com member Thread poster: dieter haake
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| what is wrong with user | Jan 29, 2006 |
how about this: it used to be "member"
basically, nothing is wrong with "user", and OMG I do agree abso-***-lutely with each and every tiny fragment of all the reasoning in support of Proz.com policy
I hoped this should be clear by now...
nothing is wrong with user but the fact that it's a new term and it replaced a nicer one
OK?
| | | | | thx Marijke! | Jan 29, 2006 |
Marijke Singer wrote:
I really do believe that we should listen when helpful people say they do not like being called users.
The Oxford dictionary gives the following:
user
· n.
1 a person who uses or operates something.
2 a person who exploits others.
3 Law the continued use or enjoyment of a right.
1 and 3 are fine but it also has the second connotation. I would not like to be called a user either!
precisely...
One thing that has not been mentioned yet is that we are told we have to be politically correct in other aspects (no politics or religion) but now we can "insult" a great part of the people who actually contribute to the site.
this is what's missing in this discussion - this specific kind of political correctness...
let me make one thing clear: of course, the site owner is absolutely free to call those who do not pay "users" or any other name
this works both ways, though (or at least I hope it does): persons who were once "members" are just as free not to like the recent change in terminology, aren't they?
and just one more thing before I (finally) shut up: some of us who have been preying on the free soup financed by Members probably simply cannot afford the membership fee
yeah sure, they are free to answer questions, earn points etc.
and yet there may be not enough questions, too many answerers, not enough time...
I would expect the fortunate Members who earn enough to pay for membership to have at least some respect for people who would very much like to pay but can't, just like that
| | | | | CMJ_Trans - your misunderstandings are exactly what we want to clear up | Jan 29, 2006 |
I don't mean to pick on you, CMJ_Trans, but your post contains excellent examples of the types of misunderstanding we hope to clear up in oart by using more appropriate terminology.
CMJ_Trans wrote:
I am NOT a member so I suppose, though I have not looked, that I have been "downgraded" to user. I wouldn't mind if I really were a "user", i.e. someone taking advantage of the site to solve his or her problems. In fact, although I have asked some questions (often over things like slogans where I thought it would be nice to give others a bit of fun!), my contribution is to answer questions.
No one can argue that you are not a "contributor" among KudoZ users, as far as information goes. However, speaking economically, you are very much a "user"/consumer--and not at all a contributer. I'll illustrate the situation in KudoZ by comparing it to sport.
Where I live, hockey players have "pickup" games. A group of players gets together and has a game, and at the end of the game, they divide the costs of 90 minutes of ice time among the number of players. If there are 20 players, and the cost is $100, each player pays $5. How many goals one scores, or how many times one passes, does not affect how much one pays; the point is that everyone who plays uses the ice, and the ice costs money.
What we have in KudoZ is a group of translators who have decided to collaborate on terms using a website. And the website (servers, bandwidth, developers) costs money. It does not matter whether you are asking or answering questions, economically, you are consuming resources when you do either. We don't get free bandwidth or hard drives, so even when you, CMJ_Trans, answer a question, someone has to pay the bill for you. The person who pays we refer to as a "member."
I use the comparison with ice hockey only to illustrate my point that economically you are consuming, even as linguistically, you are providing. Beyond that, my comparison breaks down because we have opted to use a different payment policy than our local pickup hockey players. At ProZ.com, we make payment voluntary--so that you *can* play for free if you want--and then give advantages to those who choose to pay.
So, in the end, I am providing the site with my services free of charge... An altruistic gesture, so to speak.
Let's be clear. When you answer a KudoZ question, you are providing askers with linguistics services, and you are providing the community (and the world, since the information is open and searchable) with your contributions to the archive. This is altruistic, indeed! But in no way are you providing any service to ProZ.com, the company.
So let your motivation for answering KudoZ be your desire to contribute to askers, to the world, and to yourself. Don't think or claim that you are doing it for ProZ.com, the company--you are not.
So it seems a little hard that, in addition, action is being taking to push us gently but firmly towards paying membership...
Again, I don't want to force you to do anything. Calling a member a member is nothing more than calling a spade a spade.
It simply (sometimes) amuses me to contribute something from my (long) experience. It seems daft to suggest that there should be a price tag attached.
Tell that to our hosting providers, our hardware vendors and to the families of ProZ.com's full-time employees.
| | | | Woodstock (X) 
Germany
Local time: 20:08
German to English
+ ...
| If you are referring to my responses, you're wrong | Jan 29, 2006 |
Joanna Krahelska wrote:
this discussion has so far been both interesting and illuminating... I particularly love the idea (expressed here by several Members) that what the "users" have been doing all those years was actually preying on those who pay
....
anyway, having been degraded to "user", from now on I intend to do exactly what the Members accuse me (us) of doing: to use (prey on) whatever is free here (if I ever need it) but never to contribute anything
....
have fun
jk
I have not seen one person accusing you of freeloading, including me. I and a few others have pointed out that we are happy about paying for services, and why, while accepting that others are quite content without it. Not one word more. Now you are reading things into posts that are not there, at least from what I have seen, and using terms like "degrading", "discrimination" and other emotionally loaded words in connection with intrinsically neutral words like "member" and "user". (Maybe I missed something, but I'm also working on a project and not reading every word here.)
I, for one, really don't worry one way or the other if people pay or not, I don't think about whether I'm a user or a member (in fact, I have been/am both) or if anyone else is a member or a user, and it doesn't matter to me if somebody asks or answers 1000 KudoZ and 0 of the other, or makes 1000 BB entries or none. The point is that my experience with ProZ is my own (and anyone else's for him- or herself) to create. I used the site for three months without paying, too. And if you want to see insults where I don't think anything of the kind is intended, that's your right, too. It is part of the experience you are creating here for yourself.
Whatever you or anyone else decides to do with ProZ, or not, is fine. Really.
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| here we go again | Jan 29, 2006 |
Woodstock wrote:
I and a few others have pointed out that we are happy about paying for services, and why, while accepting that others are quite content without it.
thx for the explanation, Woodstock
FYI, I know perfectly well why people pay for the services and can even guess why most are happy about it
I swear I know that and nobody needs to try and force the message into my head (no matter how terribly fragmented that particular HD is)
worse still, I understand that Proz.com has to charge a fee and I appreciate the fact that some of the services are free (whether I actually use them or not)
personally, I don't even care whether they call me a "member" (as opposed to "Platinum member") or "user" or a welfare case...
the reason why I foolishly got involved in this brouhaha is that I also understand how some people may feel about this change in terminology - which IMO wasn't really necessary (but then again, being a welfare case, who am I to express - or even to cherish - an opinion)
I do not agree with you on a single most important point: a couple of Members did use this opportunity to -
ah well, forget it
the best, jk
| | | | two2tango
Argentina
Local time: 15:08
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
| I don't see so much of an issue here | Jan 29, 2006 |
At some point the site decided to modify its terminology, and to call "users" those using site (therefore "users") without being paying members.
Users have access to the same sub-set of the site's features they used to have a month ago. Nothing has changed except for a denomination that has nothing wrong in it ("a person who uses or operates something", as defined in the first definition provided by Marijke).
I don't see how this terminology modification could be define... See more At some point the site decided to modify its terminology, and to call "users" those using site (therefore "users") without being paying members.
Users have access to the same sub-set of the site's features they used to have a month ago. Nothing has changed except for a denomination that has nothing wrong in it ("a person who uses or operates something", as defined in the first definition provided by Marijke).
I don't see how this terminology modification could be defined as "downgrading" or "discrimination". Same rights, only a different and valid name.
Regards,
Enrique Cavalitto ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I'm a user and a member and I like it! | Jan 30, 2006 |
Well, I've been a Platinum member since November 2002, and my list of questions answered is about ten times longer than my list of questions asked. So in these respects you could say that I am a contributor, not a user. Yet, after logging on to the site, it still says "User Info" right above my name (on the homepage), not "Member Info" ..... and I'm perfectly okay with that, because I AM a user of this site. A paying user, a contributing user, a member, but still a user. I use it for fun, I use ... See more Well, I've been a Platinum member since November 2002, and my list of questions answered is about ten times longer than my list of questions asked. So in these respects you could say that I am a contributor, not a user. Yet, after logging on to the site, it still says "User Info" right above my name (on the homepage), not "Member Info" ..... and I'm perfectly okay with that, because I AM a user of this site. A paying user, a contributing user, a member, but still a user. I use it for fun, I use it to get jobs, I use it to learn from, and I use it to help out others. Whether we are paying members or not, we are all users of this site. No animal is more equal than others. ▲ Collapse
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 20:08
French to English
+ ...
| reply to Henry... | Jan 30, 2006 |
Just saw your posting. I disagree with you on a large number of points you make, largely because we are coming at this from different angles. You are out to cover your costs and, I don't doubt, earn a (good) living from the site for you and your employees. I have no quibble with that as long as we are all square on that point.
What I was saying is that your site, and by extension the jobs of your employees, couldn't survive if there were no people out there prepared to help others. Whether... See more Just saw your posting. I disagree with you on a large number of points you make, largely because we are coming at this from different angles. You are out to cover your costs and, I don't doubt, earn a (good) living from the site for you and your employees. I have no quibble with that as long as we are all square on that point.
What I was saying is that your site, and by extension the jobs of your employees, couldn't survive if there were no people out there prepared to help others. Whether they do it through your site or someone else's is irrelevant, by the way.
As to user, in the sense of using your facilities, as far as I see it, I am using my time and my electricity, my computer and Internet connection (that I pay for don't forget).
Sorry - I don't want this to degenerate so I'll stop here.
PS your ice-hockey example lost me totally largely because it is a sport I don't understand and know nothing about, so I switched off somewhere along the line........ ▲ Collapse
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Fred Neild (X)
English to Spanish
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| Losing the essence | Jan 30, 2006 |
I believe this thread is losing the essence. A colleague started an extremely interesting thread in the Spanish forum last year. Unfortunately, it didn't go anywhere. But the idea was the same, the future of plats and nonplats in the site.
I wouldn't like to disregard nonplats now, because I may be in their shoes tomorrow (as someone suggested new categories will be created between members, sooner or later).
First, it would be important to know whether many nonplats ac... See more I believe this thread is losing the essence. A colleague started an extremely interesting thread in the Spanish forum last year. Unfortunately, it didn't go anywhere. But the idea was the same, the future of plats and nonplats in the site.
I wouldn't like to disregard nonplats now, because I may be in their shoes tomorrow (as someone suggested new categories will be created between members, sooner or later).
First, it would be important to know whether many nonplats actually feel uncomfortable with this, otherwise maybe things are not so terrible and the minority should adapt.
But, if many nonplats (not the majority) feel uncomfortable why not choose another name, like contributor. Just make a poll between nonplats with three options, including users. I know it is a lot of work, but sometimes things go wrong, and it is better to fix them before they get worse.
I mentioned in the beginning this thread was losing the essence because it is discussing a term that can be changed with some effort, how absurd is that. Why polemize over this, why not listen to people who have helped a lot Proz.com and are now feeling offended or downgraded. Doesn't mean they can make threats (as some have) and Proz.com should be scared, it means that Proz.com listens to them, even if they don't get exactly what they want, nobody does.
As far as I am concerned some of them collaborate with their time, and time is money. I am very thankful for all those nonplats who participate in this collective experience and make it possible.
Can I call you nonplats?
Fred ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 20:08
German to English
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| Silent majority? | Jan 30, 2006 |
Fred Neild wrote:
First, it would be important to know whether many nonplats actually feel uncomfortable with this, otherwise maybe things are not so terrible and the minority should adapt.
This nonplat has no objection whatsoever to "user". I've been called much worse.
Marc
| | | | | same here ;) | Jan 30, 2006 |
MarcPrior wrote: This nonplat has no objection whatsoever to "user". I've been called much worse . Marc
and yet I understand only too well that some of the nonplats (former nonplats, to be exact - there are no more plats) may feel offended
some participants of this discussion probably added to that feeling (whether intentionally or not)
myself, I would rather be called a welfare case like I suggested a couple of hours ago (this would no doubt please a person or two around the place)
funny, though: I was planning to do nothing but use the site but it looks like there's nothing here for me to use...
the best, jk
PS. ah well, of course I can always use the forum!
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 20:08
French to English
+ ...
| final word on the subject | Jan 30, 2006 |
As I said at the start of my first posting, I suppose I have been reclassifed as a "user" but I haven't looked - and have no intention of looking because I couldn't give a damn (to quote Rhett Butler).
The only point that I was trying to make is that I consider "user" to be a misnomer, full stop (period - for you guys in the US).
I still don't consider myself a user, despite Henry's comments. I think of myself as a provider. But in the end, it's a rose by any other name. Serve me rig... See more As I said at the start of my first posting, I suppose I have been reclassifed as a "user" but I haven't looked - and have no intention of looking because I couldn't give a damn (to quote Rhett Butler).
The only point that I was trying to make is that I consider "user" to be a misnomer, full stop (period - for you guys in the US).
I still don't consider myself a user, despite Henry's comments. I think of myself as a provider. But in the end, it's a rose by any other name. Serve me right for wanting to discuss the finer points of linguistics! ▲ Collapse
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Marc P (X)
Local time: 20:08
German to English
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| ProZ.com user vs ProZ.com member | Jan 30, 2006 |
Joanna,
You can't please all of the people all of the time. But we nonplats are not paying anything, so I don't think we have much cause for complaint.
Yes, we do contribute. I like to think that my waffling posts in the fora are of interest to someone, and I have also written a couple of HowTos and spoken at a Powwow. But my contributions are entirely voluntary. If I were a paying customer, I might expect my opinion to be listened to, but I'm not.
I agree ... See more Joanna,
You can't please all of the people all of the time. But we nonplats are not paying anything, so I don't think we have much cause for complaint.
Yes, we do contribute. I like to think that my waffling posts in the fora are of interest to someone, and I have also written a couple of HowTos and spoken at a Powwow. But my contributions are entirely voluntary. If I were a paying customer, I might expect my opinion to be listened to, but I'm not.
I agree that terminology can be important. But I really have to try very hard to find any objection to "user". I'd actually object more to "member". Is ProZ.com an association? It's a business service - I'd prefer "customer". We used to be "charter members", which was downright misleading, and I'm pleased to see that's been corrected.
I see terminology here every day that has got nothing to do with running a business: "CVs", "applying for work", "employers", "handing in a job", "low wages", etc. etc. Don't get me started on "proofreading". I really dislike the term "BrowniZ", too. "Brownie points" is a derogatory term in the UK for a child's reward. But even though I dislike the term to the extent of considering it demeaning to the profession, I don't think it's worth getting upset over.
I try to take my work seriously and myself not too seriously, which is probably why I haven't been kicked off the site yet.
Marc
P.S. If some of this seems irrelevant to your posts, it's either because I was replying to some of CMJ's points at the same time, or because it's just, well - irrelevant.
[Edited at 2006-01-30 11:59] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | agree, basically | Jan 30, 2006 |
MarcPrior wrote:
You can't please all of the people all of the time. But we nonplats are not paying anything, so I don't think we have much cause for complaint.
of course you're right
no payment, no complaints, no excessive expectations
I'm not complaining, I'm rather (if anything) making fun of a couple of things
and of course I have no expectations (or to be exact, none related to my presence here on Proz.com)
the one and only thing I cannot understand no matter how hard I try is: what on earth was wrong with the original terminology?!
(OK, between you and me, I can guess )
and the thing that really pissed me off during this discussion was the recurrent mention of a free soup (or lunch, whichever you prefer) that we the non-paying folks are being kindly (if reluctantly) served here by the paying Members
nobody likes to have their nose rubbed in this kind of stuff
the rest of my contribution to this discussion was merely testing my English, or perhaps checking how many people here would get my point, trying to avoid a big and boring project, and of course having some fun
the best, jk
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 23:38
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | This is better terminology | Jan 30, 2006 |
Mitsuko Moine wrote:
But then ProZ chose to use both terms in a specific way, i.e. member = paying user and user = non paying user.
Now this is much better terminology if you ask me, for all of us are users of the site in one way or the other, whether we pay for using it or not.
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