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Would you drive them out of business?
Thread poster: Ala Rabie

Ala Rabie  Identity Verified
Egypt
Local time: 03:01
Japanese to Arabic
+ ...
Jun 8, 2006

Say that you have an individual outsourcer who did not pay you, and you are so frustrated that morbid, evil, thoughts are overtaking you. You follow your regular routine with non-paying clients, just to get your emails and phone calls rejected--no sign of any effect is on the horizon. You accelerate your routine, send invoices with late fees, etc.

Now here comes the fun part!

You are so annoyed. So annoyed that you became real cunning. You gather information on the outsourcer, even enlisting a private eye. Now you have a list of the outsourcer's clients, his/her every online profile/page, his/her business contacts everywhere in the world, as well as his/her family members' information.

Here comes the question--although it is virtually not possible to drive someone out of business, given the ability to go annonymous or under an alias when doing business over the web, and the close circle of translators around him/her who would not be affected, would you take the next step in mass-blacklisting the outsourcer, not just online, but even in the local potential target market of this outsourcer?

In short, if you have the chance and the ability to do it, when would you take serious steps to drive an outsourcer out of business? And is it worth it? How about ethically?

~Ala
alamnesis.com

[Edited at 2006-06-08 11:04]


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:01
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Would you drive them out of business? Jun 8, 2006

what's ethical about blackmail? It's illegal, as well.

Giovanni


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Astrid Elke Witte  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 03:01
Member (2002)
German to English
+ ...
No, it is not worth it, from your point of view Jun 8, 2006

Ethics doesn't come into the picture.

How much ENERGY would you be investing in the pursuit of trying to punish the outsourcer who did not pay you?

You, personally, have only a limited amount of energy. Energy is a form of money. Every scrap of energy that you invest, in any kind of activity, is in fact investing/giving away money.

If you invest 10 minutes of energy in trying to punish someone who did not pay you,

you have lost 10 minutes of your working time.

As you only have a limited number of hours of energy in a day (before you need to go to bed and sleep), you will not - ever - regain that time.

You have lost 10 minutes' earnings, 10 minutes' money.

I could go on, but I think you might be getting the picture by now.

Astrid


P.S. Just in case you have not got the picture yet, YOU SHOULD INVEST YOUR ENERGY IN BUILDING UP YOUR OWN BUSINESS

[Edited at 2006-06-08 11:44]


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Ala Rabie  Identity Verified
Egypt
Local time: 03:01
Japanese to Arabic
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Nothing illegal here! Jun 8, 2006

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

what's ethical about blackmail? It's illegal, as well.

Giovanni


Blacklisting, Giovanni, not blackmailing!


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:01
Member (2004)
English to Italian
ah... Jun 8, 2006

I need to clean my glasses... sorry!

Giovanni


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Yolande Haneder  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:01
German to French
+ ...
Problem with it... Jun 8, 2006

A couple of month ago, I had a client in France who didn't feel like he would pay me. I sent reminders, threats to no avail.

I then contacted a collection agency in France and told he lawyer there what could happen if I wrote about him as a non payer on my homepage (ensuring that in Google everybody looking for his name could see it).

He layer answered that I may be sued for diffamation. It was not the point wether what I said was correct or not, it would be that I would be talking publicy badly about him.

Now, thanks to the collection agency (which is great btw.) I got paid - 2 days after I got the confirmation of the agency that they would take the case, I got the confirmation that he paid.

To make a point, beware of the legal aspect if you are trying to make a bad business out of somebody. It could cost you very much and not only nerves.


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Angus Woo
Local time: 09:01
Chinese to English
+ ...
There you said it. Jun 8, 2006

Yolande Haneder wrote:
Now, thanks to the collection agency (which is great btw.) I got paid - 2 days after I got the confirmation of the agency that they would take the case, I got the confirmation that he paid.

To make a point, beware of the legal aspect if you are trying to make a bad business out of somebody. It could cost you very much and not only nerves.




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Richard Creech  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:01
French to English
+ ...
Legal Issues Jun 8, 2006

Many of the proposed activities raise numerous issues under American law of unfair competition and the fair competition law of other countries. The proposed plan is legally rife with pitfalls and, leaving any ethical or karma issues aside, should be explored with an attorney before being launched.

As for claims of defamation, truthful statements are not defamatory. You are generally free to post things that are true.


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Yolande Haneder  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:01
German to French
+ ...
I may be free Jun 8, 2006

but what if the client had some contacts with a political party and is employed as the manager of the public relation of big companies.

It would be a small step for him to sue me! I am sure he is earning at least 10 times what I do and I would be the first to give up if I get sued.

I guess for the moment I don't have the money for laywers (to my dismay because I could have fun in another legal procedure - another client called for insolvency and I am sure they hid their money because what money is left - about € 15 000 - has nothing to do with their turnover and only the big fish would sue and get some money, small ones have always to give up).

Markus told me that's the risk of the business. This time I only get a scratch out of it ( did the translation myself) but next time it may be about 1000's € and I have to have the money on the side the day it happens and I have to pay a translator.


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Derek Gill Franßen  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 03:01
German to English
+ ...
What they said... Jun 8, 2006

Richard Creech wrote:

Many of the proposed activities raise numerous issues under American law of unfair competition and the fair competition law of other countries. The proposed plan is legally rife with pitfalls and, leaving any ethical or karma issues aside, should be explored with an attorney before being launched.

As for claims of defamation, truthful statements are not defamatory. You are generally free to post things that are true.


I can only agree with Richard. And like Astrid already said, I personally also think that there is more to be had from finding and keeping good clients, i.e. those who pay well and on time, than waste (too much) time and energy on the bad ones.


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Fan Gao
Australia
Local time: 11:01
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Move on Jun 8, 2006

Hi Enshrine,

I think for your own physical and mental well-being you should just put it behind you and move on.

Like Astrid has said, focus your energy on what you do well and don't compromise the quality of what you're working on now or any future projects just for this one bad outsourcer.

Was their payment that huge? If they did eventually pay after all of your efforts built out of negative energy, would it really be worth it?

Wish you the best whatever the outcome.
Mark


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Rosa Maria Duenas Rios  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:01
Too busy... Jun 8, 2006

Blacklisting anonimously, to me, is almost equal to blackmailing. I see nothing ethical about the whole procedure, not to mention the legal implications.

Besides, I have too much work, many other clients, to waste time on such things.

I would attempt collection with the assistance of an agency and, if that fails, write the debt off as a loss.


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 03:01
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
No, but not for their sake Jun 8, 2006

enshrine wrote:
In short, if you have the chance and the ability to do it, when would you take serious steps to drive an outsourcer out of business?


No. But for my own sake, not theirs. Revenge is sweet in the short term. In the long run, it is self-destructive (even if you had only one act of revenge). Don't do it.


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Vauwe
Local time: 03:01
English to German
+ ...
lessons learned Jun 8, 2006

In over twenty years in this business I had only one client who didn't pay. It was a sum of approx. 400 Euros. This is ... or better was annoying. It is just such a small percentage of my overall income in all these years. There are situations where the rate is too low, the job is more difficult than thought and needs more time then scheduled, clients that pay too late etc etc.

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Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:01
French to English
Leave the family out of it Jun 8, 2006

Whatever you decide to do, you should most definitely NOT do anything about the family members (unless perhaps you want to email them privately about the situation, which could perhaps help...?).

Other than that, I agree that the best solution is the debt collection agency route. This assumes, of course, that you kept your side of the deal (quality work, on time, etc.). Many non-payers will pay up as soon as they get just one letter from such a body.

I personally see nothing wrong with the blacklist option (assuming, as above, that your side in all this is entirely without blemish), since it could help prevent other people getting caught in the same way. However, I'm not sure that your motives are quite so altruistic

Anything else, I leave entirely up to you, your conscience and the law


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