| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Are we still a translators workplace? Thread poster: Balasubramaniam L.
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mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 16:52
Spanish to English
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| The war's over folks! | Nov 21, 2006 |
First front
Many people who engage in translation to earn all or part of their income (and many of their clients, too) have a clear understanding that for the majority of jobs there are just two prerequisites: the ability to write properly in one language (often referred to as a 'mother language'), and the ability to read and understand a text written in some other language.
In the educated world (i.e. the vast majority of countries, today), the first prerequisite is ad... See more First front
Many people who engage in translation to earn all or part of their income (and many of their clients, too) have a clear understanding that for the majority of jobs there are just two prerequisites: the ability to write properly in one language (often referred to as a 'mother language'), and the ability to read and understand a text written in some other language.
In the educated world (i.e. the vast majority of countries, today), the first prerequisite is adequately learned (or not, as the case may be) between the ages of 5 and 15. The second is more-commonly learned between the ages of 12 and 18. The fact is - whether we like it or not - that millions of kids leaving secondary education each year are equipped to translate!
There can surely be very few 'professions' that can be practiced effectively with so little formal baggage.
Second front
Some translators, it seems, are incapable of adapting their offer to satisfy market demands. Luddite philosophies will get you nowhere in the modern world!
Third front
As a defence against falling revenues, many entrepreneurial translators (and people from other walks of life) are expanding their offer and adopting modern trading practices. Many of those enterprises would appear to be exploiting the 'school-kid' variety of translator, providing them with work-experience and a basic wage, their clients with the quality they deserve and themselves with quite a nice income, thank you.
Meanwhile, there are many translators who continue to freelance on their todd, quietly bemused at the fuss being kicked up about miserable incomes from translation.
Fourth front
People in general are, by nature, a 'divided lot'. And free-lancers more than most, often by choice! Those who allow themselves to be 'misguided by people from other professions who have their own axes to grind' would do well to clean their rifles and prepare for battle, since at the end of the day the market alone will decide who survives.
MediaMatrix ▲ Collapse
| | | | RobinB 
United States
Local time: 15:52
German to English
| From a shell-hole near you | Nov 21, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:No one seems to have an understanding of what exactly is meant by translation. The general impression is that anyone with a smattering of two languages can translate the Bible.
Perhaps you'd like to qualify that by saying "Too few people seem to have an understanding of what exactly is meant by translation". A lot of people do (and many of them aren't translators), and a lot of people don't (quite a few of whom are translators).
So we have a huge influx of people in our profession who know next to nothing about translation. No wonder editors have few hairs left on their heads; these "translators" generate so much work for them.
Curiously enough, a lot of these "people in our profession who know next to nothing about translation" have degrees in "translation studies" or "translation science". I wonder why.
By "editor" do you mean somebody who edits a thoroughly revised translation, or do you mean a "reviser", i.e. somebody who revises a translation (which is what I do a lot in addition to translating)? Perhaps we should define our terminology first.
And this creates the next problem. All this correcting poor translations gives editors a big ego boost and they begin to think they can define and pontificate over the translation profession!
Again, if you mean revisers, I don't think any of us get any ego boost from revising substandard translations. Rather, we get pretty sick. And yes, we are convinced that we can and should define what translators should be doing. Often, these are simple things, like "do as you're told". As I said at the ATA conference in New Orleans (probably ad nauseam), a large part of learning the trade of translation is "learning by doing as you're told". Most translators seem to be unwilling to do this, though.
With CAT tools gaining perfection every day,
You wish! Despite all the bells and whistles of the pretty interfaces, today's TM technology is basically recycled 1980s dumb technology. There's no morphology, no low-level AI in these systems that would make them truly useful.
translation rates have tumbled down to abysmal levels
That may well be your personal experience, but it's certainly not universally applicable. I can't remember exactly where I wrote this, but I did say recently that the rate I now charge is some 400 percent higher than what I charged when I first started translating 17 years ago. And that's purely because of the specialist knowledge that I've acquired and applied since then. TM may be useful from time to time, but my experience certainly is that it hasn't affected rates. But I'm perfectlly willing to accept that other colleagues have different experiences here.
forcing translators to adopt additional income-generating activities, which interfere with their professional activities and leave them less time to develop as professional translators, which in turn reduces their income from translation. A vicious circle, if there is any.
Not necessarily. I know quite a few colleagues who have been willing to sacrifice revenue and earnings over the past few years to invest time and money in knowledge. And by and large, the results are very impressive in terms of higher earnings for them.
Translation is becoming an organized industry with agencies cornering the bulk of the work because of superior logistics supports available to them and their greater depth of pocket.
That's nothing new at all. And there are plenty of other factors playing a significant role in this trend, including corporate procurement strategies and the unwillingness of many freelances to engage in "dirty" practices, such as marketing their services professionally.
Freelance translators see their days as numbered unless they work for agencies, which means accepting a much reduced rate for the same amount of work.
Again, that's nothing new. My partner wrote a widely republished article on this subject a good 10 years ago ("Death of the Amateur - Translator Skills in the Modern World"). Partnerships, alliances and cooperatives offer an effective strategy for freelance revenue and earnings enhancement, but they also demand effort and discipline, which are not always part of freelances' skillsets.
Instead of thinking creatively to tackle these problems, translators appear to be a divided lot, drifting helplessly and unresistingly along
At the risk of repeating myself, that's nothing new. Astonishing, isn't it, how the same old issues keep cropping up year in, year out.
often misguided by people from other professions who have their own axes to ground.
I think that translators do a pretty good job of misguiding other translators without the need for outside help
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 15:52
German to English
| Don't blame the Germans! | Nov 21, 2006 |
Patricia Lane wrote: And it will become all the more so if the QA norms under discussion in Germany for Europe-wide application get adopted as they are proposed now (this from a colleague of mine in Germany who went to a meeting about this yesterday). It seems to be tailor-made for large agencies. Best solution is for translators to network and work in teams more frequently and effectively.
I guess you're referring to the new EN Standard, which is a pan-European thing, not just German. The draft was very controversial in all European countries, including Germany, and was watered down many times. It's already been adopted and will soon be applicable throughout Europe, replacing a number of national standards including DIN 2345 and the Ö-Norms.
But to be perfectly honest, I don't see it having much of an impact because it's largely unworkable. The standard requires translations to be revised by a translator with at least the same knowledge and skills as the original translator. This is difficult enough for solo freelances, of course, but probably even more so for agencies. After all, the pool of top-flight translators is incredibly small as it is, and I really don't see agencies paying double (translation+revision) for translations when they certainly won't be able to charge double to the end-customer. Unless they opt for crap translators and equally crap revisers (which is perfectly possible, of course, in the same way that you can certify a GIGO system to ISO 9000 ff.).
But I think it does open up attractive opportunities for translator partnerships, alliances, cooperatives, etc. to move up the value chain. However, as you've pointed out, this requires business skills that are generally absent in our profession. Why do so many translators seem to think the world owes them a living?
Robin
| | | | | wasn't blaming the Germans :) | Nov 21, 2006 |
And from what my colleague in Germany tells me, there is more to this than the obligation of having a second translator proof all translations (which, in itself, is a good think particularly as some agencies, though they claim they do proof all work before it gets sent to the client, in fact don't).
She said that there was also the obligtion that the original translator insert all corrections and changes proposed - even if the entire job has to revised. This is not always practical/... See more And from what my colleague in Germany tells me, there is more to this than the obligation of having a second translator proof all translations (which, in itself, is a good think particularly as some agencies, though they claim they do proof all work before it gets sent to the client, in fact don't).
She said that there was also the obligtion that the original translator insert all corrections and changes proposed - even if the entire job has to revised. This is not always practical/feasible nor does it always guarantee heightened quality. Finally, full responsibility would still rest with the original translator even if the job had been completely altered.
I wasn't at the meeting, so this is second hand...
Apparently an article is going to come out soon in the BDÜ presenting all their different viewpoints...
Cheers,
Patricia ▲ Collapse
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 02:22
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER | Businessmen translators | Nov 21, 2006 |
It was only a letting off of steam, the war imagery notwithstanding. So there was no goal-posts to move.
It has become clear to me that the only way to survive as a translator is to become a businessman-translator, and that is the answer to my original question: to whom should this site belong? To businessmen-translators, of course, in the light of this discussion.
The only problem is, I can never see myself in the role of a businessman. Perhaps I am a Ludditte, though... See more It was only a letting off of steam, the war imagery notwithstanding. So there was no goal-posts to move.
It has become clear to me that the only way to survive as a translator is to become a businessman-translator, and that is the answer to my original question: to whom should this site belong? To businessmen-translators, of course, in the light of this discussion.
The only problem is, I can never see myself in the role of a businessman. Perhaps I am a Ludditte, though I do also realize that modern technology has greatly facilitated the job of a translator. Translation is what I enjoy doing, not business. It is indeed a sad thing that in this world of so many languages there is no space for translators. So much for globalisation.
And who am I to banish people from this site or from anywhere? So have no fear, mediamatrix, you can have the run of this site if you wish, without any interference from me.
On a more serious and happy note, dear RobinB, you have mentioned about translator alliances and partnerships. May be you should find time to elaborate on these ideas in these forums, or as articles that could serve as a guides to translators wanting to position themselves properly in this changing scenario. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 22:52
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| It's not a question of motives | Nov 21, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
I suggest that translators (or those who want to be translators, and who have therefore registered at ProZ.com as "translators") should be indicated underneath their photo or logo when they post in the forums. Labelling of this nature would be a good idea in my opinion for it would enable pin-pointing the motives behind opinions expressed here.
You agree with me, but I disagree with you.
This is not about motives at all. I do not assume any "motives". We all reply to posts because we want to contribute knowledge, in good faith. I simply believe it is relevant to know which posters are language professionals who speak from experience, would-be language professionals who are still learning, and/or simply language enthusiasts with something to say.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 22:52
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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[Edited at 2006-11-21 18:31]
| | | | Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 22:52
Member (2002)
English to German
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| Quick glimpse at profile reveals so many things | Nov 21, 2006 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
I simply believe it is relevant to know which posters are language professionals who speak from experience, would-be language professionals who are still learning, and/or simply language enthusiasts with something to say.
Hi Samuel,
Don't you think that a quick look at the profile would reveal a sufficient amount of detail about the forum poster? I, for one, do (at least if the profile contains SOME information).
As to the other points raised in this thread, I'm with Robin and mediamatrix.
Steffen
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RobinB
United States
Local time: 15:52
German to English
| Same standard? | Nov 21, 2006 |
Hi Patricia,
I wonder whether we're talking about the same standard?
She said that there was also the obligtion that the original translator insert all corrections and changes proposed - even if the entire job has to revised. This is not always practical/feasible nor does it always guarantee heightened quality.
News to me, and I can't find it in my copy of the standard. AFAIK, there is no obligation under the standard for a translator to accept all changes made by the reviser. This sort of thing would normally be governed by individual contract.
Finally, full responsibility would still rest with the original translator even if the job had been completely altered.
This would be totally at odds with statute law, of course (e.g. the Civil Code in Germany), which standard-setters try to avoid like the plague, so I wonder whether your friend hasn't had the wool pulled over her eyes by some rapacious agency
We're basically more than compliant with the new standard in any case, although we don't see any benefits in registration/certification at the moment: we were DIN 2345-registered right from the start (my partner was a member of the technical committee that developed that standard) and not once has a client asked whether we complied with that - or any other - standard. Unless you're doing a lot of heavy tech translations, I really do think that this sort of standard is a non-issue.
Robin
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 22:52
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Did you read my profile before you read my post? | Nov 22, 2006 |
Steffen Walter wrote:
Don't you think that a quick look at the profile would reveal a sufficient amount of detail about the forum poster? I, for one, do (at least if the profile contains SOME information).
I don't have the habit of checking someone's profile before reading what they wrote in the forums. Do you? But perhaps the problem lies with me and the method I use to read the forums.
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RobinB wrote:
Hi Patricia,
I wonder whether we're talking about the same standard?
[
Robin
I think so... And no, my colleague did not get the wool pulled over her eyes by an agency. I *believe* the meeting she went to was hosted by the BD Û, she is no newbie to the profession, and has, like you, applied the existing standards since they came out.
Since she mentionned an article would be published expressing all the different points of view, I guess we have to wait and see. I assume it will be published in German, so maybe when the time comes, you could give us non-speakers a summary?
I guess we have to wait and see....
Patricia
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 15:52
German to English
| The business of translation | Nov 22, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote: I can never see myself in the role of a businessman.
Leaving aside literary translation, which has its own rules and dynamics, freelance translation has always been a business, and no doubt always will be. If you're translating for money, and you're translating texts (directly or indirectly) for commercial enterprises, then you're providing a business (B2B) service. If you translate texts for money for private clients (certificates, etc.), then you're providing a B2C service. Even court work is a business service, albeit for the public sector.
It has become clear to me that the only way to survive as a translator is to become a businessman-translator, and that is the answer to my original question: to whom should this site belong? To businessmen-translators, of course, in the light of this discussion.
Most freelances understand right from the outset that translation is a business, though that doesn't mean that they're necessarily very good at the business aspects of translating. Nevertheless, you must understand that "this site" belongs to freelance translation service providers ("businessmen" in your parlance) and always has done.
The only problem is, I can never see myself in the role of a businessman. Perhaps I am a Ludditte, though I do also realize that modern technology has greatly facilitated the job of a translator. Translation is what I enjoy doing, not business.
You could always translate for free - there are plenty of opportunities to do this for not-for-profit organisations, NGOs, etc. But if you want to charge money for your translations, then you're offering a business service, period. You don't have to enjoy the business aspects of translating, but they're part-and-parcel of the profession of translator, just like paying taxes.
It is indeed a sad thing that in this world of so many languages there is no space for translators. So much for globalisation.
You evidently don't see very much of the world. There has never been so much space for translators as there is today, there have never been so many opportunities for translators as there are today. And globalisation has played a crucial role in this, as it always has in the life of translators over the past couple of millennia.
On a more serious and happy note, dear RobinB, you have mentioned about translator alliances and partnerships. May be you should find time to elaborate on these ideas in these forums, or as articles that could serve as a guides to translators wanting to position themselves properly in this changing scenario.
There are plenty of articles available online on this topic, and I don't think there's much I can add. I suggest that you trawl the relevant translation websites and platforms (there's a very big, very interesting and highly instructive world out there outside the narrow, steamy confines of ProZ!). A good place to start is always the Translation Journal website at http://accurapid.com/journal/, where you can search through almost ten years of extremely useful articles and opinion pieces, as well as the often amusing advice doled out by my friends Fire Ant and Worker Bee.
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 02:22
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER | Thanks for this link | Nov 22, 2006 |
RobinB wrote: A good place to start is always the Translation Journal website at http://accurapid.com/journal/, where you can search through almost ten years of extremely useful articles and opinion pieces, as well as the often amusing advice doled out by my friends Fire Ant and Worker Bee.
Dear RobinB,
Many thanks for providing this link. I have bookmarked it and intend to study the articles there carefully.
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