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Problem over difference in wordcount....
Thread poster: toptrans

toptrans
India
Local time: 21:04
English to Hindi
+ ...
Mar 26, 2007

Hello All,
We are facing severe issues with false allegations from one of the fellow translators recently...
The scenario is:
1. We had approached a translator for translating a document for translation from German to English, of 180 source pages
2. We had formatted the files till page 142, and sent it for starting the translation…and clearly mentioned that the next day we will be formatting the complete document and to use that document hence after…
3. The translator had accepted receipt of this.
4. The translator submitted the file translation after 2 days over the deadline WITHOUT using the final formatted file given…
5. There came the issue of difference in word count…when we had converted the pdf file to word, many text of the tables/images were copied in a random way (i.e., the texts,table,images which were to be present in the beginning were pushed to the end of the document) and so while sending the final formatted file all these corrected, and those tables/images/text that were found in the end of the document where put in the correct position. The incomplete formatted file had 27043 words but the final completely formatted file had 23479 words.
6. Now the translator to whom we had allotted this job has IGNORED this 2nd completely formatted file.
7. When he had set the invoice for the target English word count, he had considered only the incomplete unformatted first file
8. This has lead to an increase in word count, than it should have been
9. Obviously those text that were deleted NEED not be done
10. Now he is claming for all these…and threatening us to take legal steps, used filthy language, sending out rude mails, screaming out over the telephone, abusing Indian translators…

Today he has come out with new issues of sending false mail thread, created some smaller false documents, just to increase the word count, and to show we ve agreed to certain terms…

Has anyone faced such problem…or any advises pl??- Tina


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 17:34
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
What had you agreed? Mar 26, 2007

1. What did your enquiry state?
2. Did he base his offer on specific volumes?
3. What did you PO say?

Without these essential data it is impossible to comment.

Best

Mats Wiman


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:34
English to German
+ ...
Please clarify bilateral issues outside the forum Mar 26, 2007

Tina,
As Mats correctly pointed out, it is impossible to comment without knowing the details of the situation. Since it would be inappropriate to post them here, I would therefore strongly suggest to refrain from using the forum to clarify bilateral issues.

Best regards,
Ralf


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toptrans
India
Local time: 21:04
English to Hindi
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
formatted file Mar 26, 2007

...the translator had agreed for a certain amount of USD to be paid for the target English word only.

Our PO clearly mention the same too, within 30 days from the date of invoice.

- he has accepted to work on the completed formatted file sent a day after the incomplete formatted files were sent.

But he had completely ignored this formatted file... , though he knew this was not right..

Tina


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toptrans
India
Local time: 21:04
English to Hindi
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
on issues Mar 26, 2007

Dear Ralf,

I understand this...but the translator :

-is claming that he has contacted a moderator...??

- only after receiving this mail , I d posted this on the forum

I d posted to as we would certainly like to know if any other agencies/translators had faced such similar issues.

In case we are violating any rules of posting, pl.let us know
Tina


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 17:34
English to German
+ ...
If you are talking about us.. Mar 26, 2007

toptrans wrote:

Dear Ralf,

I understand this...but the translator :

-is claming that he has contacted a moderator...??

- only after receiving this mail , I d posted this on the forum

I d posted to as we would certainly like to know if any other agencies/translators had faced such similar issues.

In case we are violating any rules of posting, pl.let us know
Tina
Halo Tina, I can publish our contract on our website. Secondly we had agreed on translation services alone and not on editing and or formatting. We have stated very clearly from the beginning that we would be processing the file using trados. At this stage you should have mentioned, usage of trados or any other similar tool is not necessary. Silence is half way agreement, denial or an unrevealed secret. If you give us a badly formatted file,which we could not rig into trados and it was moving so slowly - BTW badly formatted, where the headers and footers appear in the middle of the page, tables frozen no expansion possible, missing letters ex " Brieffach was given as Briesach and the Postfach as Postbach". you have infact sent us, whether formatted file or any other not just 180 odd pages, they were infact 212 pages. This was the basis for us, additionally you also had sent one original .pdf file which you had recd. from your customer and another .pdf reference file. It took us hours and days to read all that content and one of our translators got sick on page 25 and said he cannot take this punishment any further, this was due to the badly formatted document which you had admittedly proudly presented to us. Any translator would agree that while translating from German into English one has automatically more words, to my understanding the MORE could be around 35% 40% as per a given situation. Well we did not leave any part of the document, despite all the trouble and held our promise to translate the full file, we did this and delivered, hence fulfilled our part of the contract. The word count was approx. 34000. you came back 30 later back requesting further services such as editing and formatting. That was the sweet song, that gives headaches. By then the project was booked as cleared, as we did had fully and completely obliged our contractual promise/agreement. Then you had sent a file back, requesting an OK from us, whether it was acceptable. At this stage all our ghosts were back and we closed the file and there was no contract to this effect, as we had pointed out, that this is in no manner the file we had delivered to you. It had been rewritten (you may call it in your language reformattted) and brought the word count to 29000. But as per known values of DE-EN translations it is hard to believe that a source file having 28000 + odd words count result only in 29000 words. So there is a place here for discrepancy in the word count. We do not know what you did to our file and do not have any authorization of any kind from your side to fulfill this kind of request, to re-read the full file and give you an OK. We have no contract to this effect, put in simple words. Our goal is not to harm your business in any way, but stick to the truth. The final word count cannot be what you have given us after your so called reformatting. It is the target word count as we have processed. We have processed your file in as-is state, informed you of the same and stuck to our promise of delivering a translation. In the meantime we have generated a full server sided mail protocoll, duly chronologically organized so that any layman even an idiot would understand what is going on. If you wish we can put a link or publish this story on the web and take bids from debt collecting companies and give access to any top range lawyer to support the truth. I myself deal day-in and out with various clientele around the globe, why should I or anybody in my position have a bad intention or even to lie in this regard. Please take it record now - that I did Masters industrial maths (production technologies and engg.) and do not tend to make such mistakes. We have produced the translation as you have recd. and have given you a genuine word count and we have no obligation to fulfill editing, formatting and any such related services. Our contract says "Translation and Translation alone" and full word counts, unlike you wishing to deduct the repeats. Sorry there, a contract is a contract, whether you deal with your neighbour or remotely with a translator from any region around the globe. Best regards, Brandis. YES, we did contact a moderator, since you were so adament and not wishing to see the truth.
Toptrans asks -
6. Now the translator to whom we had allotted this job has IGNORED this 2nd completely formatted file. "
Brands asks back -
If we did, where did you get the target you have now and where did we get it in the first place to send you. I do not even wish to guess, what you could have done to our file. I must remind you, you can twist and turn and recreate this file in your capacity once you have balanced our invoice. i think I have made my point clear. I have recorded all the communication since we have started with your agency and that file alone is about 20 MB with all links, markings, time stamps. It will surely make an intesresting reading. And leave out all that wrong propaganda. We do not have any requirement to abuse any indian translators or any translators, why should we ! I find this is a wrong direction to escalate without any genuine basis. brandis


[Edited at 2007-03-26 12:10]

[Edited at 2007-03-26 12:12]

[Edited at 2007-03-26 16:18]

[Edited at 2007-03-26 18:29]


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 17:34
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
I disagree with Brandis on several points Mar 26, 2007

Brandis wrote:
We had agreed on translation services alone and not on editing and or formatting. ... We have stated very clearly from the beginning that we would be processing the file using Trados.


On the one hand, I agree with Brandis that a client should specifically mention if he wants formatting to be retained in the translation. True, many clients just assume that a translation will include the formatting of the original, but that has to be said specifically. On the other hand, Trados retains formatting by default, so if you told the client that you were using Trados, you were implying that you would retain formatting, unless *you* said otherwise.

At this stage you should have mentioned, usage of trados or any other similar tool is not necessary. ... If you give us a badly formatted file,which we could not rig into Trados and it was moving so slowly...


That is irrelevant. The choice to use Trados was yours. Telling a client that you're using Trados can't be taken as a warning that he shouldn't send a file that Trados will choke on. If your CAT tool can't handle the files, then it aint the client's fault (if he didn't specify that you use that tool).


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 17:34
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Washing dirty laundry in the forums Mar 26, 2007

Brandis wrote:
And leave out all that wrong propaganda. We do not have any requirement to abuse any indian translators or any translators, why should we ! I find this is a wrong direction to escalate without any genuine basis.


I have no idea what "bilateral issues" are, but I find it sad, Brandis, that you would choose this forum instead of a private e-mail to communicate your frustration.

Your name, Brandis, was never mentioned in Tina's post, and I for one would never have been able to guess that you were the translator the original complaint was about.


[Edited at 2007-03-26 20:49]


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Hipyan Nopri  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 22:34
English to Indonesian
+ ...
Agree with Ralf & Samuel Mar 27, 2007

I think there is no problem that cannot be solved as long as there is mutual understanding & honesty between the two parties. Thus, these bilateral issues had better be solved privately rather than in this public, open forum.

May you both find the best and win-win solution over the issue soon.


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 17:34
English to German
+ ...
I feel it obligatory to infom the OS of the CAT tool I can implment... Mar 27, 2007

Hello Samuel,

My name stands below my picture. Secondly I always mention a range of CAT tools that I can use, either as a matter of information or to impress an oursourcer.

- There are no bilateral issues of any kind. I am also speechless about the comment involving indian transaltors. This dirty laundry is not mine, if it were not posted by the outsourcer in the first place.

-I did not choose this forum because I loved to. That 20 MB file I had mentioned contains all the communication I and my colleagues had with this agency.

- About Trados and retaining the format. Many clients also give badly formatted files, for example in this case headers and footers were up in the middle of the page and tables frozen and or squashed and pushed to the end of the document, the table of contents was either damaged or removed, but there was something about this file, that made it hard to implement trados,had hard time to get the file moving. Yet we did, because we had our TMs in Trados. I almost always mention which tool I use for the transaltion, while keeping in view, that the outsourcer may opt for another or opt out or opt-in a tool. in a way we would have been happy, because trados was not specifically required, but no Sir - we would not have been happy, becuase we wouldn´t have been in a postion to use our Termbase resources. We have delivered a full translation, now only that is important.

- I did not ask for this posting and I couldn´t resist reacting, seeing much more damage is being done. After receiving the files, the outsourcer calls me a liar. I can prove it otherwise, because I have full record on this event.

- May be I had misinterpreted this poster of top trans /Tina. They probably did not mean us. It is due to the similarly of the issue I had to react.

- As mentioned already we have about 20 MB communication (mails etc., ) file here in chronological order, in case of necessity. I did not ask anyone specifically to initiate this posting. I had merely mentioned in one of my mails that I / We have contacted a moderator to win clarity over the situation and that we will not hesitate to go the court of law, if we feel injustice is being instigated on account of whosoever. We are being penalized to a tune of 5000 words, also mentioned clearly in the BB and also a moderator was informed of this. Similarly a debt collection agency and lawyers help will be taken in this regard. We cannot afford to waive on 5000 words income, especially when one after the other of us got sick processing this file.

Brandis




[Edited at 2007-03-27 03:12]

[Edited at 2007-03-27 03:50]


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