any private blacklists? Thread poster: Sylvia Muniz
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Sylvia Muniz 
Spain
Local time: 14:36
English to French
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Well, as the BB only harms us (translators) I suggest for practical reasons to send our private blacklists so we can stop these abusive outsourcers getting rich at our expenses!!!
I have been on ProZ for a month or so and I have already blacklisted ten outsourcers who owe me a lot of money and have insulted me, on the other hand I have also made up a list of "PROPER" outsourcers with whom I intend to go on working.
Or maybe we could start some forum / site to share thi... See more Well, as the BB only harms us (translators) I suggest for practical reasons to send our private blacklists so we can stop these abusive outsourcers getting rich at our expenses!!!
I have been on ProZ for a month or so and I have already blacklisted ten outsourcers who owe me a lot of money and have insulted me, on the other hand I have also made up a list of "PROPER" outsourcers with whom I intend to go on working.
Or maybe we could start some forum / site to share this vital information among us -- those who still think that they need not work for free and get insulted on top of it.
Wait for your comments,
Sylvia
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2007-06-14 00:54] ▲ Collapse
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Irene N
United States
Local time: 07:36
English to Russian
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| Wait a minute... | Jun 13, 2007 |
A month or so... 10 outsourcers already on the blacklist. A whole liist of good ones on top of it. A lot of money at stake. Somebody help me with the math please.
For one, my congratulations with such impressive number of jobs obtained through Proz in 30 days. All those jobs must have taken at least a few days to complete. Normal invoice turnaround is 30 days. What are we talking about?
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Özden Arıkan
Germany
Local time: 14:36
Member
English to Turkish
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| In what way do you think BB harms us? | Jun 13, 2007 |
Hi Sylvia,
Blue Board is a tool that helps us share our experiences and express our willingness to work again with a particular outsourcer. I don't know how you have formed this view about it in your one month at Proz.com, but I wonder in what way you think that the Blue Board harms us translators.
Thank you for elaborating.
Regards,
Özden
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Sylvia Muniz
Spain
Local time: 14:36
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | I explain ... | Jun 13, 2007 |
If you place a negative comment, you will be threatened (please, do take the time to read other posts) and insulted. Does a translator want an abusive answer being posted against him? Or a negative WWA to scare off all potential clients? As I said, it's not just me who is faced by this situation, it's obvious and logical if you think about it...
Precisely people who have no intention to pay (this is in response to IreneN) give very readily their job; and me, being a newbie, have me... See more If you place a negative comment, you will be threatened (please, do take the time to read other posts) and insulted. Does a translator want an abusive answer being posted against him? Or a negative WWA to scare off all potential clients? As I said, it's not just me who is faced by this situation, it's obvious and logical if you think about it...
Precisely people who have no intention to pay (this is in response to IreneN) give very readily their job; and me, being a newbie, have met a good portion of them out here, believe me. I'd love to name and shame these "people" in here, yet, it goes against the rules, hence the idea of a private list. ▲ Collapse
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Patricia Rosas
United States
Local time: 05:36
Spanish to English
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In memoriam | seconding Irene's question ... | Jun 14, 2007 |
Sylvia Muniz wrote:
Precisely people who have no intention to pay (this is in response to IreneN) give very readily their job; and me, being a newbie, have met a good portion of them out here, believe me. I'd love to name and shame these "people" in here, yet, it goes against the rules, hence the idea of a private list.
Sylvia, it's clear that something bad has happened to you, and I don't want to just brush it off, but to give you any helpful advice or support, we all need to understand the situation.
Irene noted that it is impossible to have found 10 bad payers in 30 days, since invoices are normally paid 30 days after submission. Did you turn in your work and were told you wouldn't receive payment for it?
It's also surprising to hear that you did more than 10 jobs in one month (since you also worked for pleasant people who were good payers). I've never done more than 3 jobs in one month, total.
Could you please explain the situation in a little more depth?
Thanks,
Patricia
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Sylvia Muniz
Spain
Local time: 14:36
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | more explanations | Jun 14, 2007 |
We are a team of three translators, we do have a very big work turnover, it seems ... And we even thought it was not much!
The "bad" clients have not answered to my e.mails, insulted my work, never sent me the "corrected" text back for my review, fiddled over the agreed price once they had the translation on their pc, etc...
The "good" ones have paid even a day after the job was sent!
The rest have congratulated us so, we don't expect any problems (fingers ... See more We are a team of three translators, we do have a very big work turnover, it seems ... And we even thought it was not much!
The "bad" clients have not answered to my e.mails, insulted my work, never sent me the "corrected" text back for my review, fiddled over the agreed price once they had the translation on their pc, etc...
The "good" ones have paid even a day after the job was sent!
The rest have congratulated us so, we don't expect any problems (fingers crossed). ▲ Collapse
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Özden Arıkan
Germany
Local time: 14:36
Member
English to Turkish
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| Please take a look at BB rules and FAQ | Jun 14, 2007 |
Hi again,
Sylvia Muniz wrote:
If you place a negative comment, you will be threatened (please, do take the time to read other posts) and insulted. Does a translator want an abusive answer being posted against him?
Of course not. But posting an abusive answer is not allowed in any way. Please take a look at the rules about using Blue Board. Especially the rules # 7, 8, and 9.
Also note that Blue Board entries, as well as the replies to entries are made public upon moderator approval. Still, if you notice or receive an abusive answer, please don't hesitate to contact a Jobs moderator.
Or a negative WWA to scare off all potential clients? As I said, it's not just me who is faced by this situation, it's obvious and logical if you think about it...
As for a WWA entry, you have the choice to receive one or not. Please read through the FAQs 41 to 48.
I have tried to clarify some misconceptions I've perceived in your post. In any case, Irene's valid questions aside, I believe one month is not long enough a time to reach at definitive conclusions about the Blue Board and other site systems. I suggest you take some time to check in more detail, preferably consulting the FAQs and the forums, too.
Hope this helps.
Özden
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Anne Goff
United States
Local time: 05:36
French to English
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| the idea of blacklists in general... | Jun 14, 2007 |
I don't believe setting up informal blacklists would be very beneficial to translators. I've seen a few, and they tend to devolve into lists of every translation company in existence.
Bad translators blacklist good companies who refused to put up with bad translations. Good translators have a bad experience with a generally good company and blacklist them... It becomes worse than useless.
Outside of fairly formalized setups like the BB, I believe the only way to have... See more I don't believe setting up informal blacklists would be very beneficial to translators. I've seen a few, and they tend to devolve into lists of every translation company in existence.
Bad translators blacklist good companies who refused to put up with bad translations. Good translators have a bad experience with a generally good company and blacklist them... It becomes worse than useless.
Outside of fairly formalized setups like the BB, I believe the only way to have a successful "blacklist" is to share your experiences with translators whom you have come to know, understand and respect. Then at least you can evaluate their evaluation of the companies in question. ▲ Collapse
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| The one month issue | Jun 14, 2007 |
I think poster might have only been on Proz for a month but has been translating for longer than that - if so, her ratings would therefore relate to jobs extending back to before she joined Proz
BB isn't restricted to jobs you received through Proz or did while a member/user of Proz - the criterion is simply you must have worked with the outsourcer.
Sylvia can perhaps just confirm and hopefully that would clarify the issue Irene has raised.
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Who said they met these clients at Proz? They may very well know the agencies on the blue board from past experience and only now found out about the blue board facility.
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Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 14:36
Member
English to Hungarian
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| Payment Practices mailing list | Jun 14, 2007 |
There are quite a few sites/mailing lists concerned with payment practices. I found this one particularly useful: http://www.paymentpractices.net/
Attila
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megane_wang
Spain
Local time: 14:36
Member (2007)
English to Spanish
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| The way you do... business practices | Jun 14, 2007 |
Hello Silvia,
I'm shocked about you having 10 blacklisted customers, no matter you are 3 or how old the experiences are.
For me it looks like either you hold a real record, or there are less than that (in more than 10 years I only have 2 of those, and I run away before getting seriously hurt). I hold a blacklist of agencies who have bad business practices, but no one I know could contribute to it with more than 2 entries up to date.
Clearly, there is a pro... See more Hello Silvia,
I'm shocked about you having 10 blacklisted customers, no matter you are 3 or how old the experiences are.
For me it looks like either you hold a real record, or there are less than that (in more than 10 years I only have 2 of those, and I run away before getting seriously hurt). I hold a blacklist of agencies who have bad business practices, but no one I know could contribute to it with more than 2 entries up to date.
Clearly, there is a problem somewhere. And my first impression is that you either evaluate very poorly your potential customers, or your own job, and you accept any poorly referenced job, with any unacceptable rate, just for the sake of surviving the 3 of you.
There is also an alternative to this: that your job is not always as good as it should, for any reason: maybe because you accept unacceptable working conditions and cut-out quality somewhere. If you do that to any customer (good or bad) your pocket will notice it immediately, unless the customer does not care about quality at all (not a good match either).
I would suggest that, before starting to post in the BB or request any black list you objectively analyzed every single "problem" project from the very beginning, and try to extract conclusions from the analysis.
(HEY: NO ONE is going to see that. So DO IT, and DO IT RIGHT: lies will not help you at all).
- Where did you get the project?
- Who offered the project?
- Are you SURE???? Did you check the identity? Did you have ANY reference?
- In conclusion, did you have any trustable information regarding that customer?
- Again, are you sure? Real name? Company name? Registration or VAT ID? Real address? Real telephone number? If on Proz, read their info page and BB?
- Was the project clearly described?
- Are you SURE???? Content, extension, format, TM or not, glossary or not, potential reader description, what you should do, when should it be delivered? In which language?In which format? In which version?
- If not... Why not? Why did you even not try to get it?
- Did you request a purchase order or anything equivalent describing the project, pricing and payment terms?
- If yes, was it complete and clear enough to show you what the expectations of your customer were?
- If not... What the ... made you proceed with the project?
- Did you issue an offer with your conditions?
- If not... Why ?
- If yes: did it include every detail you need to make sure that your expectations on the project are clear? (pricing, payment terms, what will you do if not paid...)
- Did you do the job to your best?
- Sure? Auto-correction, then correction again, then reading again, better printed out... you should know.
- Not? Did you know it?
- If you did not know, try to find out if this has had any consequences...
- If did know... why? Be HONEST: no one is looking...
- Do you know which is your daily working capacity?
- Sure?
- Sure??? 8 hours job + 8 hours sleep + eating, strolling, reading, taking care of your pets, family or yourself ... And including some margin for unexpected things within your job?
- Was the deadline appropriate?
- Did you contact the customer during the project to tell them about the status? To warn them about any expected delay?
- Did you deliver your job on due date?
- Which time? 19 pm? To a customer in your local time?
- Why was it like that?
- Did you accept the customer pricing as is?
- Have you EVER done a rate calculation?
- Sure? Let me say I doubt it. Please, go and use this:
http://www.proz.com/?sp=rate_calc
Once again, be HONEST about this rate calculation: include the salary you deserve and every single expense you have. Never assume that you would have a computer or a DSL if you did not work. No: that's not true, because you would not be able to afford them with zero income. Don't forget insurances, rents, vacations, illnesses, selling time, and do not pretend that you are going to work 60 hours a week forever. I bet this is pretty over what some people has been offering around lately, including a few "kind" colleagues.
- How was the result like? Over / Below customer suggestion?
- Below? Good for you, but quite unlikely.
- Over? Did you discuss that with the customer? Why did you accept something you can't live with? Are you sure it was worth it?
- Was the project an "unlucky" one? Sometimes things just don't work. What did it happen? Does this justify your customer's non-satisfaction? Does this justify that you are unsatisfied with customer's reaction?
- What was the problem according to the customer? Did you do anything to improve the result? Did you do anything to help the customer with the problems resulting from that?
- How did you manage the customer's non satisfaction? Did you call them? E-mailed them? WHO did you try to contact? Are you sure that THAT was the right person to solve that specific problem?
- What did you do to solve your final problem with your customer? Again, did you call them? E-mailed them? WHO did you try to contact? Are you sure that THAT was the right person to solve that specific problem?
................
Well: let's do that for 10 unsatisfied customers: I'm sure you are going to get real answers, and you will dislike more than one. But doing nothing will lead you nowhere.
Try to learn to detect a problem before it becomes a huge problem. I did not learn just by complaining: I learned through analysis and real reaction (some trial and error too).
These are my final comments: customers don't want problems: they want solutions. I don't want parasites making me work for free: I want customers who provide interesting jobs and enjoyable relationships.
I hope this helps.
Ruth @ MW
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PS: I have seen in your profile that you have a long experience, but even in this case, there may be something in my "questionnaire" you can think about
[Edited at 2007-06-14 13:15] ▲ Collapse
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