| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | agencies that can't be bothered to do PDF word counts Thread poster: Ken Fagan (X)
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Heinrich Pesch 
Finland
Local time: 09:37
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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After OCR you probably get a wordcount that is higher than what you actually will translate. Many times each page has headers and footers, that you translate only once if at all, and also logos etc. are converted into text.
If there is a table of content, you usually do not translate it, but translate the headings and generate the TOC within Word. I once had a pdf with 500 lines of text, and the outsourcer had agreed on this estimate. The translation had only a little more than 300 lines, ... See more After OCR you probably get a wordcount that is higher than what you actually will translate. Many times each page has headers and footers, that you translate only once if at all, and also logos etc. are converted into text.
If there is a table of content, you usually do not translate it, but translate the headings and generate the TOC within Word. I once had a pdf with 500 lines of text, and the outsourcer had agreed on this estimate. The translation had only a little more than 300 lines, because the actual text was not more than two thirds of the total.
Usually you get the real wordcount after translating, when your CAT-tool does the cleanup.
Cheers
Heinrich ▲ Collapse
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I am amazed that translators try to compensate for the responsibilities belonging to their clients that their clients don't take. It is the clients' job to provide a wordcount, and a solid wordcount at that. If they want you to do the wordcount, then you can count what you will. If they can't do the wordcount properly, then they should pay by target word, end of the story.
Why don't translators charge by target word in such cases? That's what I do and clients have no problem with it... See more I am amazed that translators try to compensate for the responsibilities belonging to their clients that their clients don't take. It is the clients' job to provide a wordcount, and a solid wordcount at that. If they want you to do the wordcount, then you can count what you will. If they can't do the wordcount properly, then they should pay by target word, end of the story.
Why don't translators charge by target word in such cases? That's what I do and clients have no problem with it. Maybe then you should check if your client is good enough for you, or at least offer to charge by target word. You can easily perform wordcount on the target document... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ken Fagan (X)
Local time: 08:37
French to English
TOPIC STARTER
As I said in a previous post, this is not about money: this is about being placed in a situation where it isn't possible to do a job properly because of an under-estimate. Another situation is where the agency over-estimates and the translator turns down work because s(he) thinks s(he) doesn't have the time.
The result was that I had to translate 8,000 words (instead of the client's estimate of 5,500) in too short a period of time. Had the client's estimate been anywhere near accura... See more As I said in a previous post, this is not about money: this is about being placed in a situation where it isn't possible to do a job properly because of an under-estimate. Another situation is where the agency over-estimates and the translator turns down work because s(he) thinks s(he) doesn't have the time.
The result was that I had to translate 8,000 words (instead of the client's estimate of 5,500) in too short a period of time. Had the client's estimate been anywhere near accurate I would have turned down the job immediately (and the client would have known that it was mission impossible).
I personally believe that it is the client's job to give me an accurate estimate, but since, in practice, I cannot count (no pun intended!) on agencies, I have just downloaded a trial of (and purchased) Abbeyy Fine Reader, which appears to be very good for word count estimates.
Thanks to everyone who recommended Abbeyy. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 08:37
German to English
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| Responsibility | Jun 16, 2007 |
Isn't the supplier's job to quantify the scale of the work and estimate the time required in most trades or professions? Why should translation be any different?
Marc
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Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
I am amazed that translators try to compensate for the responsibilities belonging to their clients that their clients don't take. It is the clients' job to provide a wordcount, and a solid wordcount at that.
I'm amazed frankly that you call it compensating for the client. This isn't about sticking up for the client, it's about the translator having the business savvy and common sense to protect his/her own interests.
After all, as Marc correctly points out, the translator is supplying the service. If I employ a builder and tell him he needs 150,000 bricks to build my house, do you think he is going to accept that blindly, without checking? If I get wheeled into casualty, is a doctor going to listen to me telling him how many units of blood I need?
Agencies make mistakes and, yes, some try their luck - welcome to the real world. Many other clients wouldn't even know how to determine a word count. So, who picks up the tab then?
Facts: The agency made a job offer, the translator accepted it without:
a) seeing the document first; or
b) seeing the document but despite having 16 years experience not noticing that there was a 2,500 word discrepancy (which is a good 5-8 pages difference, depending on formatting).
Not hammering on Ken here, hindsight is a wonderful thing - we all have stuff-ups from time to time and make rash decisions wishing we could kick ourselves afterwards - but he's hardly the "victim" in the situation as he makes out.
And yes, although money wasn't the issue here (as opposed to stress/lack of time), I also only charge target on PDF jobs.
[Edited at 2007-06-17 07:16]
| | | | | I couldn't agree more | Jun 16, 2007 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Why don't translators charge by target word in such cases?
Totally agree: I normally charge by the SL word count, but clearly state to my customers or prospects "unless the document to be translated arrives as hardcopy or as a non-editable electronic file (pdf or similar)", in which case the TL word count will apply".
| | | | | Target Word Count | Jun 17, 2007 |
Riccardo Schiaffino wrote:
"unless the document to be translated arrives as hardcopy or as a non-editable electronic file (pdf or similar)", in which case the TL word count will apply".
Then how do you determine whether you will be able to meet the deadline? Afterwards?
| | | | | By estimating the word count, of course | Jun 17, 2007 |
Harry Bornemann wrote: Riccardo Schiaffino wrote:
"unless the document to be translated arrives as hardcopy or as a non-editable electronic file (pdf or similar)", in which case the TL word count will apply". Then how do you determine whether you will be able to meet the deadline? Afterwards?
By estimating the word count of the source language on the hardcopy or pdf document, of course: what I mean is that in these instances the word count for the payment will be the TL word count, but of course whenever something arrives to be translated I check that the customer's estimated word count is, at least roughly, correct.
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Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 08:37
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
My main goal is to get very quick, very accurate (at least 95% accurate) word counts. It'd be nice to get near-perfect Word docs that I could work in, but my main purpose = word counts. Huh?!
My primary intention in OCRing a PDF-full of jpged text is to be able to use my farm of translation memories. Word count comes in (with a vengeance) later, when I charge them at no-repeats rate for the whole darn document.
Plus, of course, a per-page charge for doing OCR in the first place.
Regards
PS: 8000 vs 5500 is a difference of say 16 vs 11 pages and it does not take FineReader to notice that. Sort of a checksum calculation - which we sometimes forget to do. Sigh.
[Edited at 2007-06-17 05:50]
| | | | | estimating the word count | Jun 17, 2007 |
8000 vs 5500 is a difference of say 16 vs 11 pages and it does not take FineReader to notice that.
For 8000 vs 5500 words I would estimate 27 vs 18 pages, much depending on the contained graphics, tables, layout, font size ... so I think you (or me) could easily estimate this wrongly to an extend, where not only the total costs would be affected but also the deadline (or quality).
Thanks FineReader I won't get into this situation (again), and I developed the habit of mentioning that my quotation won't be binding until I will have analysed the files.
[Edited at 2007-06-17 06:33]
| | | | | Comparing page counts is irrelevant .. | Jun 17, 2007 |
Harry Bornemann wrote:
[For 8000 vs 5500 words I would estimate 27 vs 18 pages, much depending on the contained graphics, tables, layout, font size ... so I think you (or me) could easily estimate this wrongly to an extend, where not only the total costs would be affected but also the deadline (or quality).
... because the number of pages depends on the formatting of the document in each case.
The point is Vito is making is that an experienced translator should be able to immediately note a discrepancy of 2,500 words on a 8,000 word job after seeing the document and taking the specific formatting into account - after all, the job is 30% larger than the agency's estimate!
If you've accepted the deadline, you have no right to turn round later and say quality is going to be affected because you failed to determine the actual scope for yourself.
Different kettle of fish if you are receiving the source texts in instalments as the author finishes and those just keep rolling in - but that isn't what happened here. Anyhow, an experienced translator would confine himself/herself in that case to setting individual deadlines as and when the instalments arrive.
Anyhow lesson learned, that's the main thing.
[Edited at 2007-06-17 07:32]
| | | | | Right or Duty | Jun 17, 2007 |
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
If you've accepted the deadline, you have no right to turn round later and say quality is going to be affected because you failed to determine the actual scope for yourself.
I agree that on one hand you do not have the right to say so, but on the other hand you do have the duty to say so - as early as possible to minimise the damage (instead of pretending that nothing particular had happened).
And I guess if the PO mentioned 5000 words you would have the right to return those 5000 words in time and negotiate a new deadline for the rest, taking other current projects into account.
Anyway, my clients are usually more interested in practical solutions than in the question who owns which rights..
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Ken Fagan (X)
Local time: 08:37
French to English
TOPIC STARTER | can someone pls tell me how can I stop receiving any more replies? | Jun 17, 2007 |
can anyone pls tell me what I can do to stop receiving replies to this thread in my email?
[too much negative karma being created]
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 08:37
French to English
+ ...
| stupid question.... | Jun 17, 2007 |
couldn't you have shared the job with a colleague?
That would perhaps have saved a lot of hassle, if you had someone reliable to ask
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At the top of the page on the right hand side you should see a small yellow box "Email tracking" with a checkbox to toggle the notifications for this thread.
But I don't feel any "negative karma" around, rather a friendly discussion..
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » agencies that can't be bothered to do PDF word counts | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
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