| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Just had a translation rejected! What?!? Thread poster: Jessica M
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Jeff Whittaker 
United States
Local time: 11:29
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| UK English vs. American English | Dec 14, 2007 |
"a check in the amount of" is perfectly good American English and judging by a google search, "a cheque in the amount of" is not very common in UK English where it seems "a cheque for" is prefered. There are a number of expressions that differ between the two varieties of English (for instance "at the weekend" sounds completely wrong to an American speaker) and it would be difficult for a agency that speaks neither variety as a native language to know whether the "error" in question is a grammat... See more "a check in the amount of" is perfectly good American English and judging by a google search, "a cheque in the amount of" is not very common in UK English where it seems "a cheque for" is prefered. There are a number of expressions that differ between the two varieties of English (for instance "at the weekend" sounds completely wrong to an American speaker) and it would be difficult for a agency that speaks neither variety as a native language to know whether the "error" in question is a grammatical error or because you are a speaker of American English.
It would also be quite difficult for a speaker of one variety to check every single prepositional phrase to make sure it matches the corresponding dialect. For this reason, whenever I do any work for a European agency, I always stress that the document will be written in American English. Of course, I can always put the document through the UK spellcheck to catch things like (cheque/check, color/colour), etc., but differences in prepositional usage, vocabulary preference and register will always mark the text as being "foreign".
[Edited at 2007-12-14 21:54] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Claire Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:29
French to English
+ ...
| Am confused.. | Dec 14, 2007 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Claire Cox wrote:
However, I wouldn't call it "serious" and I'd certainly have no problems with leaving the abbreviation of "Flr." if part of an address. There you go, Jessica, a completely contrasting view! I may be old fashioned, but I would say one potential purpose of an address is to go on an envelope to be delivered by a postman. Do you all seriously expect postmen to be able to read "floor" in every possible language? You don't (I hope) translate "calle" in an address, so why translate floor? I don't get it....
I'm now confused. I would certainly leave the address as in the original, so I was assuming that Jessica had left "Flr." as in the original. Then, if the person requesting the translation has to send a letter back to the original author, the address will be exactly as it should be for the Spanish post office to deliver it. Is that not what you're saying too? Or are your surmising that Flr/floor has been translated from whatever it is in Spanish, which of course would be wrong.
It's been a long week....
| | | | Claire Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:29
French to English
+ ...
| Sorry Jessica | Dec 14, 2007 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
"a check in the amount of" is perfectly good American English and judging by a google search, "a cheque in the amount of" is not very common in UK English where it seems "a cheque for" is prefered. There are a number of expressions that differ between the two varieties of English (for instance "at the weekend" sounds completely wrong to an American speaker) and it would be difficult for a agency that speaks neither variety as a native language to know whether the "error" in question is a grammatical error or because you are a speaker of American English.
I hadn't realised you were American! You're obviously completely vindicated in this respect, but it only serves to show the problems that arise because of the differences that exist between the two forms of English.
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Claire Cox wrote:
I would certainly leave the address as in the original, so I was assuming that Jessica had left "Flr." as in the original. Then, if the person requesting the translation has to send a letter back to the original author, the address will be exactly as it should be for the Spanish post office to deliver it. Is that not what you're saying too?
Exactly. We agree on that. Addresses should be left such that a postman in the source langauge country can deliver to that address with no language issues.
Personally, I quite often add the name of the country, in the target language, such that the intended readership of the translation could conceivably address an envelope in full on the spot (it may not be immediately obvious to those not in the know what country some minor town is in)
Or are your surmising that Flr/floor has been translated from whatever it is in Spanish, which of course would be wrong.
I am, and I agree that it is wrong.
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Jessica M
Spain
Local time: 17:29
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER | Oh my, Charlie... | Dec 14, 2007 |
I do see your points, but since you have felt the need to be so frank, I shall have to return the favor.
Charlie Bavington wrote: Jessica M wrote:
I will admit that there were some questions about vocabulary, but via the term search feature on this website and my legal dictionary I felt as though I had translated this document in a professional manner. Please don't tell me that these were the only two resources you used....
Of course not. But I don't want to bore everyone with all the details that aren't necessarily important, such as the EXACT resources I used.
Charlie Bavington wrote: Jessica M wrote:
(it was abbreviated in the original document, so what is wrong with abbreviating it in the translation?) Is this the approach you always adopt with abbreviations? This point you make gives rise to so many other questions and comments, it's hard to know where to start, beyond giving the facile response of "there might be plenty wrong with it, depending on the context". e.g if it's an address, you should perhaps leave in Spanish in case someone copies the address onto an envelope and confuses the Spanish postie! Is the target readership only EMT, or are there going to be any non-natives reading it who might struggle to connect "flr" with floor? And so on.
So what you're saying is that when someone in the UK writes "Spain" instead of "España" there is a chance that once the letter arrives in Spain the postman won't be able to read it?
Charlie Bavington wrote: Jessica M wrote:
or "a cheque in the amount of 300€" being deemed grammatically incorrect AND being deemed as "spanglish" (they said "a cheque for 300€" would be grammatically correct, but I didn't translate it that way because it didn't seem formal enough to me).
Patent piffle from your client, although "for the amount" would appear (google) much more common, which does not make it right, but may condition customer expectations.
Then perhaps, knowing that I am American, they should have specified UK English, which they did not. All other documents that I have translated for this agency, legal or otherwise, have been in American English. And there has been at least one a week for the last few months.
Charlie Bavington wrote: Jessica M wrote:
I defended my work in a professional manner, but was not rude or overly defensive. That good. I have noted, however, that you're all gushing and appreciative of those posting in support, but as soon as someone says "er, are you sure you're qualified", you do get defensive (as one would) but do not, in fact, provide any evidence that you are in fact qualified. On your own admission, you don't know much about Spanish law. I know criticism can be hard to take, but can you put your hand on your heart, look me in the eye and say you know it was perfect the way it was?
We are all human and we all make mistakes. I was defensive to the first critical answer because I think it is ridiculous to me to assume that everyone's proz.com profile is up-to-the-second accurate. I think that I did say that I have experience working with lawyers and in the legal system in the US, and that I have read and drafted several legal documents and am therefore familiar with the legal jargon that goes along with these documents. But perhaps you overlooked that part in your rush to judge the quality of my work through a posting from a beginner asking for advice on proz.com. I have never claimed to be perfect. I do the best work I can do and, although I have actually been translating for a grand total of 6 months, I was quite surprised by the reaction of the client, considering the last legal document I translated for this agency was a rather large legal contract (18,000 words) that WAS indeed perfect.
I have no problem taking criticism. I do, however, have a problem with the way you have approached this response. You don't know me, nor do I know you. I think your tone and wording was inappropriate, and the truth is that I am offended. I am new to translation, but I am not stupid. There are polite ways to say things and still be critical.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 11:29
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| A perfect example | Dec 14, 2007 |
Claire Cox wrote:
I hadn't realised you were American!
A perfect example. Over here we would say "I did not/didn't realize you were American". However, while we would never say "I hadn't realised", we would not deem it incorrect(perhaps through exposure to each other's varieties from movies, TV, etc).
However, if I amended your sentence in this manner in a translation, a non-native speaker of English might deem the different spelling of "realize/realise" and the verb choice "had not realised" vs "did not realize" as a deficiency in grammar rather than a difference in variety.
Therefore, it is important that the agency know the market for their translation and that both the translator and proofreader speak and write the same "language".
This begs the question, is there a market for into American English translations in Europe and the UK?
[Edited at 2007-12-14 18:36]
| | | | | I think the agency will get in touch with you again | Dec 14, 2007 |
For what it's worth I think they will keep sending you work. Why don't you tell them that while you don't agree with all their criticisms, you will think about what they have said and offer them a discount on that translation?
If they've been sending you work for months they must have a lot of confidence in you and if they find that you are willing to listen to criticism, as you seem to be, without getting completely defensive, if they have any sense they will appreciate that.
| | | | Jessica M
Spain
Local time: 17:29
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER | My experience is... | Dec 14, 2007 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote: Claire Cox wrote:
I hadn't realised you were American! A perfect example. Over here we would say "I did not/didn't realize you were American". However, while we would never say "I hadn't realised", we would not deem it incorrect(perhaps through exposure to each other's varieties from movies, TV, etc). However, if I amended your sentence in this manner in a translation, a non-native speaker of English might deem the different spelling of "realize/realise" and the verb choice "had not realised" vs "did not realize" as a deficiency in grammar rather than a difference in variety. Therefore, it is important that the agency know the market for their translation and that both the translator and proofreader speak and write the same "language". This begs the question, is there a market for into American English translations in Europe and the UK? [Edited at 2007-12-14 18:36]
...that generally they will specify UK English if it is very important that the document be in UK English. Granted, my experience isn't much as I have stated a few times in this post! But I do have MS Word set to UK English to catch all of the "-our" words and things of that nature.
And yes, there are quite a few grammatical differences between the two.
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| Addresses and stuff | Dec 14, 2007 |
So what you're saying is that when someone in the UK writes "Spain" instead of "España" there is a chance that once the letter arrives in Spain the postman won't be able to read it?
No, that's not what I'm saying (my guess is most postmen get familiar with the name of their country in major foreign languages anyway, just from seeing the words regularly).
We need to consider the whole process and who, where, is interested in what bits of the address.
When you post a letter, it will first be sorted locally. Ergo, the salient details about where to route said missive in the sorting office need to be in the local tongue. For international mail, that means writing the country name in the language spoken by the people sorting the mail collected from the letterbox (as we call them).
And the letter is chucked in a sack and loaded on a plane and flown where it needs to go, and which point the letter will already be, in our case, in Spain, and so all that matters is that Spanish postal workers can read the rest of the address, so all that bit needs to be in Spanish.
Which means that addresses on international mail need to be, in effect, in two languages, the "local" bit + the country name in the language the mail is sent from.
Which is, therefore, the approach that I adopt when "translating" addresses, which generally (there may be exceptions, I can't think of any offhand) means leaving the addess as it is and adding the country in English (if I think anyone may, at some point, use my translation as the starting point for a letter).
| | | | Jessica M
Spain
Local time: 17:29
Spanish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Charlie Bavington wrote:
So what you're saying is that when someone in the UK writes "Spain" instead of "España" there is a chance that once the letter arrives in Spain the postman won't be able to read it?
No, that's not what I'm saying (my guess is most postmen get familiar with the name of their country in major foreign languages anyway, just from seeing the words regularly). We need to consider the whole process and who, where, is interested in what bits of the address. When you post a letter, it will first be sorted locally. Ergo, the salient details about where to route said missive in the sorting office need to be in the local tongue. For international mail, that means writing the country name in the language spoken by the people sorting the mail collected from the letterbox (as we call them). And the letter is chucked in a sack and loaded on a plane and flown where it needs to go, and which point the letter will already be, in our case, in Spain, and so all that matters is that Spanish postal workers can read the rest of the address, so all that bit needs to be in Spanish. Which means that addresses on international mail need to be, in effect, in two languages, the "local" bit + the country name in the language the mail is sent from. Which is, therefore, the approach that I adopt when "translating" addresses, which generally (there may be exceptions, I can't think of any offhand) means leaving the addess as it is and adding the country in English (if I think anyone may, at some point, use my translation as the starting point for a letter).
Thanks so much for your input.
| | | | Patrice
United States
Local time: 08:29
Member
French to English
+ ...
| Who in the working world has not ever felt wounded? | Dec 15, 2007 |
Technique can be taught. Attitude cannot. Hard as it might be, I would suggest that if you do get less-than-stellar feedback and it's making you feel bad or sad, keep your goal in mind (being paid for good work) and express appreciation for the feedback and do try to learn from it. What is the client really saying with this feedback? "Explain to us your choice of words etc. Reassure us." And then you with your solid abilities will explain, and they will take your solid explanation back to their ... See more Technique can be taught. Attitude cannot. Hard as it might be, I would suggest that if you do get less-than-stellar feedback and it's making you feel bad or sad, keep your goal in mind (being paid for good work) and express appreciation for the feedback and do try to learn from it. What is the client really saying with this feedback? "Explain to us your choice of words etc. Reassure us." And then you with your solid abilities will explain, and they will take your solid explanation back to their client.
If you don't have solid answers to their questions, then you need to figure out where you went wrong and learn from it for the next time. There will be a next time and another client, if not this one. Just keep moving one foot ahead of the other.
I find translation no different from other fields. The office politics exist although they are virtual. People do sometimes question the competence of others and you must not allow other people to shape your sense of self-worth.
And always, always make sure that you stand behind your translation 100% when you turn it in.
(My friend, a shrink, always says, "What's the worst that can happen?"). A bit simplistic but the point is not to let the (internal and external) chatter in life affect your success. ▲ Collapse
| | | | JackieMcC
Local time: 17:29
French to English
| look at the translation as a whole | Dec 15, 2007 |
Hello Jessica,
I won't comment on the two examples you gave, which have already been discussed at some length. They are, I presume, just two of a number of "errors" claimed by the client ?
I suggest you need to look objectively at all the terms the client has problems with, and assess whether any of the criticisms are justified.
Bear in mind that if a client/editor finds one or two genuine errors, they may get wound up and start picking holes in the rest of the document, chan... See more Hello Jessica,
I won't comment on the two examples you gave, which have already been discussed at some length. They are, I presume, just two of a number of "errors" claimed by the client ?
I suggest you need to look objectively at all the terms the client has problems with, and assess whether any of the criticisms are justified.
Bear in mind that if a client/editor finds one or two genuine errors, they may get wound up and start picking holes in the rest of the document, changing things that would otherwise have gone unnoticed or don't need actually changing.
Your priority now should be your relationship with your clients, if indeed you want to continue working with them.
So I advise preparing a written reply, analysing each "problem" in the document. If any criticism is justified, accept this and apologise. For all the other terms (the majority, I presume), explain why your translation is correct. This will take time, but is well worth it as you will come across as professional and concerned about the quality of your work.
Often agencies and project managers find themselves in a difficult situation when an end client complains, as the project manager will not be sufficiently specialised in the subject matter or language to be able to judge who is right. So he/she has no choice but to simply pass on the complaint to the translator and wait for a reply. Good agencies will take your reply into consideration. They may also - unbeknown to you - ask another translator for a second opinion to try and get a clearer picture. One of my good clients occasionally asks me to arbitrate in this way in disagreements between end clients and translators. Which is why I suggest being honest about any genuine errors!
All translators encounter clients who complain without reason, either believing they know better than the translator or because they are trying to get a discount. At the same time, we all have to accept that we are not infallible and learn from our mistakes.
Kind regards,
Jackie ▲ Collapse
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| A further revision of the document is normal practice | Dec 15, 2007 |
If the Customer insists on fitting the style of the document to their language specifics/usage, you couldn't reject such request, otherwise you risk to loose your agent.
Since 99% of legal translations as such have no legal effect and are only supportive material and ANY original document is being normally revised at least several times in terms of material details, style, choice of words etc etc.,
therefore, express your willingness to do further revision (for free or for extra char... See more If the Customer insists on fitting the style of the document to their language specifics/usage, you couldn't reject such request, otherwise you risk to loose your agent.
Since 99% of legal translations as such have no legal effect and are only supportive material and ANY original document is being normally revised at least several times in terms of material details, style, choice of words etc etc.,
therefore, express your willingness to do further revision (for free or for extra charge, you should know better) and do not forget to thank the agency for having informed you about the clients specifics.
As for UK or US or an official letter in English written by say a Frenchman working in Russia and addressed say to his German colleague in Australia (International English), both being "big" linguists, I should note, that LEGAL document meant to be used for legal purpose (not for office reading only) MUST be translated word-by-word, however nonsensical the output content may turn. I mean that in the court the lawyer/barrister will use one defence to "for 300 eur" and another one to "in the amount of.." At issue here are the things other than style.
Good luck !
[Edited at 2007-12-15 09:22]
[Edited at 2007-12-15 10:08]
[Edited at 2007-12-15 15:56] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Watch out for the Microsoft EN-UK spelling dictionary | Dec 15, 2007 |
Claire Cox wrote:
But I do have MS Word set to UK English to catch all of the "-our" words and things of that nature.
Be careful with that. The MS Word dictionaries (in XP & 2003 at least) won't catch "iz*" words when doing a British spelling check.
| | | | | So let's get back to your original questions | Dec 15, 2007 |
1. Do I bother to ask if they are going to send me work again? They didn't say that they wouldn't.
What would you do in their situation? I would NOT ask them, and surely not before this thing is sorted out completely.
2. What are your impressions of their response?
To me their response seems very qualified and professional in that they not only tell you that "something was wrong" and "the client was not happy" but sent you a fully revised version of your... See more 1. Do I bother to ask if they are going to send me work again? They didn't say that they wouldn't.
What would you do in their situation? I would NOT ask them, and surely not before this thing is sorted out completely.
2. What are your impressions of their response?
To me their response seems very qualified and professional in that they not only tell you that "something was wrong" and "the client was not happy" but sent you a fully revised version of your translation so you can comment on it and offer corrections if you agree with their criticism.
3. Do agencies normally double-check the work they send off to the client, especially if it is translated by someone who is new to the field?
Good ones often do and should do so. But once they came to trust your work and quality they may just pass the translation through to the customer.
4. If they don't send me any more work do I bother to ask them for a reference?
This is a bit complicated. How do you find want out if they send you more work? Wait half a year and then ask for a reference? Or ask them now if they will send more? And then, if they say "no" ask for a reference? Freelancing is not the same as an in-house job. You normally do not ask your clients for references AFTER YOU STOPPED working for them. I would only ask for references if I have a very positive and ongoing business relationship with a customer.
Allow me a few more comments, no offense intended.
Jessica M wrote:
... another translator had compiled a list of errors that were "very serious" and "strange for a translator to make, let alone a native English speaker." To me, MANY OF THEM seem to be a question of style, ...
Does this mean there were some you had to accept as real and serious mistakes? ▲ Collapse
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