| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17] > | The global TM I want... Thread poster: Felipe Gútiez Velasco
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"If someone offers me complete, aligned, official translations of the BGB, HGB and other German legal frameworks, I'll bite perhaps, because that would save me a bit of research time, and for that sort of material one should work with the "official" translations as long as they are not actually wrong. But as soon as you start extending the scope to, say, DIN standards, you've lost me, because the titles of those texts alone indicate monkeys at work in many cases.
Collaboration is of... See more "If someone offers me complete, aligned, official translations of the BGB, HGB and other German legal frameworks, I'll bite perhaps, because that would save me a bit of research time, and for that sort of material one should work with the "official" translations as long as they are not actually wrong. But as soon as you start extending the scope to, say, DIN standards, you've lost me, because the titles of those texts alone indicate monkeys at work in many cases.
Collaboration is often vastly overrated. It is certainly a good thing with small, focused teams with competent people and a limited mission. Once you start involving the masses, things become very complex and quality becomes potentially disastrous." Quotation
Very interesting approach. What about creating specialised TMs?
And in relation to "monkeys at work", that is precisely the point on the whole thing: improve quality and have fun. The only ones who would stay in the future with such a system would be the very good translators who could improve visibility (like in ProZ). It is exactly the same thing.
Great idea! Lets do it!!!
[Editado a las 2008-08-28 11:19] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Public domain resources and the limits of collaboration | Aug 28, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Very interesting approach. What about creating specialised TMs?
And in relation to "monkeys at work", that is precisely the point on the whole thing: improve quality and have fun. The only ones who would stay in the future with such a system would be the very good translators who could improve visibility (like in ProZ).
It's not a big deal to do the occasional alignment of resources such as I mentioned. The information is in the public domain. Netscape used to make a TM of common error messages available some time ago. I've seen a few - a very few - other instances of possibly useful potential TM content of general interest.
However, even though I have a fairly good opinion of most of my work, I doubt that my private TM content would be of much use to most good translators in my fields, as I have certain quirks of style which would surely drive many of them up a wall or at least require significant editing for style compatibility. We don't even need to get into a discussion of the monkey-generated content: even if it were possible to patch together large parts of a translation through some advanced way of assembling TM and terminology content from many sources, the result would be a bit of a linguistic Frankenstein's monster without the creature's virtues. Some may be satisfied with such a patchwork mess and be willing to put their names on it, but I refrain from work (such as huge collaborations with ridiculously short deadlines) where I know the result would be a personal embarrassment to me. I'll leave that to the folks who have low standards, starving children or just a cracked desire to tilt at windmills.
| | | | | What did your customers say about it? | Aug 28, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
But Felipe, this still leaves my question unanswered: What did your customers say when you told them you intend to share the TMs you use for their jobs?
Sorry to be a pain in the neck Felipe, but to me it is very important to know what your own customers said to your idea of sharing the TMs you use for them. This is critical to this whole idea of a global TM. Please answer my question.
| | | | | Internal sharing | Aug 28, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
Sorry to be a pain in the neck Felipe, but to me it is very important to know what your own customers said to your idea of sharing the TMs you use for them. This is critical to this whole idea of a global TM. Please answer my question.
You are right to bring this up. I have had many conversations with a favorite client of mine who deals with numerous Siemens divisions, and over and over he hears furious demands from heads of divisions that under no circumstances are the resources (TM or terminology) from one group to be used for the benefit of another group. I laugh my back end off when I hear this, because (1) I have translated endless rah-rah documents about a "united company" working together and (2) in this small world of translation, it's a fair bet that many experienced translators have the resources to do just that anyway, and there's nothing to stop it. I see the same material for the same companies from half a dozen agencies or more - the only differences in many cases is what the middleman is willing to take for a cut and what resources the end customer has provided to that particular agent. Sometimes we're even talking about the same document to be translated... on those occasions I figure I'm competing against myself
Even if all the end customers loved the idea of a "global TM", I think it would be a waste of effort except in the few narrow instances I've cited. It's bad enough dealing with the relevant, project-specific TMs I see from many sources!
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 21:09
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Why is it so crucial? | Aug 28, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
Sorry to be a pain in the neck Felipe, but to me it is very important to know what your own customers said to your idea of sharing the TMs you use for them. This is critical to this whole idea of a global TM.
Why is it so crucial to know what Filipe's clients think about the whole idea?
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Samuel Murray wrote:
Why is it so crucial to know what Filipe's clients think about the whole idea?
One reason, which occured to me despite my cynicism regarding the whole shebang, would be ascertain the level of contribution one might reasonably foresee from the instigator of the scheme.
It would, I feel, be a bit rich if, having secured other people's TMs to add to his TM pool (or global TM), if those people, upon asking to see evidence of Felipe's own contribution, were to be told that he himself was unable to contribute because his clients forbade it.
I would expect to see pitchforks being dusted down and a rare old hue and cry were this to occur
| | | | | If Logoport does it, why shouldn`t we? | Aug 28, 2008 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
Why is it so crucial to know what Filipe's clients think about the whole idea? One reason, which occured to me despite my cynicism regarding the whole shebang, would be ascertain the level of contribution one might reasonably foresee from the instigator of the scheme. It would, I feel, be a bit rich if, having secured other people's TMs to add to his TM pool (or global TM), if those people, upon asking to see evidence of Felipe's own contribution, were to be told that he himself was unable to contribute because his clients forbade it. I would expect to see pitchforks being dusted down and a rare old hue and cry were this to occur
You are brilliant, you folk.
The idea is good and you all have it once. That is why you are so irritable.
Let´s do it this way:
we make Logoport II.
Has anyone heard about billionaire judiciary process against Logoport? Not even one?
| | | | Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 15:09
Member (2000)
Greek to English
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| some thoughts | Aug 28, 2008 |
Felipe, you wrote:
I talked to mr. Zetsche from TM marketplace and he told they were just testing the corporations. He puts some TM on sale in internet and what happened? http://www.tmmarketplace.com/ NOTHING No trial, no judiciary process, no angry phone calls from corporations, NOTHING AT ALL
...YET. Do the clients/corporations know? Was their permission requested? I'm just curious.
Corporations need to sell commodities, not words. They don´t care at all about translation.
Are these your words or theirs?
The thing is coming and all I want is to have a couple of really good professionals, meanly translators and writers, but also good developers, etc that make the difference at the desing phase.
From this I get the impression that you want to be in charge of this new project and you're looking for participants (although somewhere in this thread you wrote "The ones doing the TM should be Wikipedia or ProZ, or both"). You also seem to be looking for investors, if this project is related to this thread of yours:
http://www.proz.com/topic/113732
And you also wrote "Is anyone willing to pay 30 Dollars/month for having a global TM available?" i.e. you're also looking for clients.
So... the idea is to recruit some people, compile a global TM, and then sell it. I read the words "translators, writers, developers, investors, willing to pay for having a global TM". Or did I get this wrong? How is this different from Logoport or what Lionbridge plans to do?
Now, about KudoZ. You wrote:
Have you asked permission to your clients in order to make a question at KudoZ each time you did? Did they know that you were publishing part of their document in Internet? may be some brandnew term? and that anybody could be aware of what language was it being translated in?
First of all I don't find it reasonable to make a comparison between translation units / segments / sentences and individual terms. Remember, KudoZ is a "term" help network and there are word limits. Sometimes people write full sentences, or even include confidential information in the context section; as a KudoZ moderator let me assure you that I have received messages many times from kudoz askers, asking me to remove old questions of theirs because their client had come across them on the internet and had gotten very angry because confidentiality had been breached. One of the askers that contacted me said that the client was going to sue her, so I ended up removing more than 10 questions asked by her. Needless to say she lost the client, but this was clearly not the worst thing that could have happened.
Charlie wrote:
Charlie wrote
I'll pay you 30 bucks...
.... to keep it out of my way.
Most of the TMs that I get sent to work with are lamentable. Likewise most of the revision I get sent. I see no evidence thus far to think that any global TM would be anything other than a steaming heap of crud.
Same here. If this global TM is like the few TMs I've had the misfortune to receive from clients (and why would they be any different?), then like Charlie, I'll pay you 30 bucks to keep it out of my way.
So in answer to your original posting:
I would like this list to be a kind of shopping list where anybody can add what he/she wants to have in a global TM. n Spanish could be "el baúl de los recuerdos". Buscando en el baúl de los recuerdos...[/quote]
Thanks, but no thanks. Great name, but I like my "baúl de recuerdos" to have only my "recuerdos"/memories because those are the only ones I trust to be accurate. Other people can keep their recuerdos in their own baúl.
Maria
[Edited at 2008-08-28 18:46]
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| Looks familiar | Aug 28, 2008 |
>> I talked to mr. Zetsche from TM marketplace and he told they
>> were just testing the corporations. He puts some TM on sale
>> in internet and what happened?
>> http://www.tmmarketplace.com/
This looks quite a lot like the stuff I used to get for free from Microsoft in the MSDN library or off the FTP site, perhaps filtered a bit in an attempt to ward off a possible lawsui... See more >> I talked to mr. Zetsche from TM marketplace and he told they
>> were just testing the corporations. He puts some TM on sale
>> in internet and what happened?
>> http://www.tmmarketplace.com/
This looks quite a lot like the stuff I used to get for free from Microsoft in the MSDN library or off the FTP site, perhaps filtered a bit in an attempt to ward off a possible lawsuit.
Let's see... I suppose I could use my copy of Passolo to start doing alignments of the language resources of major commercial software too, but I wouldn't be surprised if the lawyers for those companies started sending me love letters at some point. Better to stick to real public domain content and not make any half-baked assumptions about what clients think and what is "legal". ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Maybe you don't fit either? | Aug 28, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote: Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
But Felipe, this still leaves my question unanswered: What did your customers say when you told them you intend to share the TMs you use for their jobs? Sorry to be a pain in the neck Felipe, but to me it is very important to know what your own customers said to your idea of sharing the TMs you use for them. This is critical to this whole idea of a global TM. Please answer my question.
Hi, Tomás
As critical as it is to be perfectly aware -and let other translators become aware- that it is illegal to share clients' information and thus violate confidentiality. Maybe you don't get reply because both your question and my post on the codes of ethics don't fit here. (sic) The owner of this thread doesn't like to be asked about illegal issues concerning the global TM.
Warm regards,
Gabriela
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Gabriela Mejías wrote: Tomás Cano Binder wrote: Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
But Felipe, this still leaves my question unanswered: What did your customers say when you told them you intend to share the TMs you use for their jobs? Sorry to be a pain in the neck Felipe, but to me it is very important to know what your own customers said to your idea of sharing the TMs you use for them. This is critical to this whole idea of a global TM. Please answer my question. Hi, Tomás As critical as it is to be perfectly aware -and let other translators become aware- that it is illegal to share clients' information and thus violate confidentiality. Maybe you don't get reply because both your question and my post on the codes of ethics don't fit here. (sic) The owner of this thread doesn't like to be asked about illegal issues concerning the global TM. Warm regards, Gabriela
The legal issues don't seem to be an issue with him.
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writing on YOUR thread, Felipe, but I won't stop saying that sharing clients' information without their consent is completely ILLEGAL.
Fernando
[Edited at 2008-08-28 19:49]
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Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 15:09
Member (2000)
Greek to English
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| comment about the thread | Aug 28, 2008 |
Fernando Walker wrote:
writing on YOUR thread, Felipe, but I won't stop saying that sharing clients' information without their consent is completely ILLEGAL.
Fernando
Please don't worry, if any posting is off topic, ProZ.com moderators will say so. In my opinion all postings made so far are pertinent.
And of course it's illegal to share TMS and other client information. I've always thought it was obvious. I'm shocked to read that there are companies asking translators to share their TMs, and even more shocked that there are translators willing to do it! It is illegal and for some texts I would go so far as to say that it is unethical.
| | | | | Much ado for... what exactly? | Aug 28, 2008 |
I agree with Kevin - usefulness of any such "amalgamated" TM would be at least disputable. I may be over-individualistic, but most often I find it very hard to make use of TMs I sometimes get with projects. So, on the "consumer side" I do not believe the benefits would be worth the providers' effort.
On the provider side, I would be unable to send out segments on which I am bound by confidentiality agreements, which is a vast majority. And the rest I would not give out because I de... See more I agree with Kevin - usefulness of any such "amalgamated" TM would be at least disputable. I may be over-individualistic, but most often I find it very hard to make use of TMs I sometimes get with projects. So, on the "consumer side" I do not believe the benefits would be worth the providers' effort.
On the provider side, I would be unable to send out segments on which I am bound by confidentiality agreements, which is a vast majority. And the rest I would not give out because I deem them my intellectual property.
Antonin ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Critical for a good reason | Aug 29, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
Sorry to be a pain in the neck Felipe, but to me it is very important to know what your own customers said to your idea of sharing the TMs you use for them. This is critical to this whole idea of a global TM. Why is it so crucial to know what Filipe's clients think about the whole idea?
Hi Samuel. To me, sharing TM resources with other people is something we can only do if our customers agree. We must ask them. It appears to me that Felipe has no intention to ask his customers about it.
We must not forget that TMs are part of the materials we use in our customer's jobs. Most NDA's state that, after a job, all materials must be returned and any copies destroyed if the customer should request so. They never request that unless they completely discontinue their business with us, because by entrusting us with the TMs and reference materials, they ensure that we have them for future similar jobs, thus saving everyone some time and promoting consistency.
So, as they entrust this information (and the TMs of course), they are expecting us to be careful about this information, which also includes asking them before we do anything with the materials. This is always expressed in some way in all NDAs.
So far, this thread sounds to me the same way as planning the use of our neighbour's car.... without asking our neighbour... Do we want our neighbour to think we steal cars? Do we want our customers to think that we translators are unable to honour their privacy?
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