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The global TM I want...
Thread poster: Felipe Gútiez

Felipe Gútiez  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:43
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
+ ...
Aug 26, 2008

First of all sorry about my English. Hope this thread will be useful

I posted in a thread in Spanish about wether or not give up our TMs and I realised that we needed a new thread about the global TM we want. More information about global TMs in TAUS, Wordfast very large translation memory, TDA, etc
http://www.translationautomation.com/

Logoport from Lionbridge is something in the art (but private)
There are some very good threads already about the topic, one of them from Henry, the one who started Proz. If possible add those links to this thread, please

The idea is to get a common idea of what us, translators want and need from a global TM that could be useful for us. This thread is to get some feedback for this idea. We can create an "ideal" global TM. Is like choosing the extras for our personalised car, bought in Internet, of course: air-conditioning, 7 seats, etc, etc.

I would like this list to be a kind of shopping list where anybody can add what he/she wants to have in a global TM. We can even start with the name: why global TM?. There should be better names than that one. Has anybody a proposal for the name?
In Spanish could be "el baúl de los recuerdos". Buscando en el baúl de los recuerdos...



So I would like to have a TM that:

-Has the name and "impresum" of the person in charge for that TM, just in case it provides some illegal information
-is very, very, very big, but quick
-searchable by creator, date, language, etc
-with lots of pictures or even videos for terminology
-with terminology tool
-with terminology tool scalable
-multilingual
-with lots of literary works translated (you can call the Cultural Heritage Unit at the European Commission to show interest, so that they can boost collaboration between the libraries everywhere)


Your turn!!!

[Editado a las 2008-08-26 11:23]

[Editado a las 2008-08-26 21:32]


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FarkasAndras
Local time: 10:43
English to Hungarian
+ ...
misc Aug 26, 2008

A lot of things come to mind, a few:

Multilingual is not so good. Inflates the size and you're unlikely to find the same material in many languages in good quality. Language pairs are where it's at.

I wouldn't want literature in there (inflates the size and it's little or no use), but I sure as hell could use a mega database of book and article titles, in a separate TM/glossary. It would do away with all the searching when a book is mentioned/cited.

In a large mongrel TM, a descriptive field containing the source is a must of course. But that is easy to do, as are a bunch of htings you mention.

Making a large TM (upwards of a million TUs) manageable is problematic. Wordfast is useless at that size and Trados starts to cough and choke at around the 800000 mark, too.

The tough bit is getting good material in large quantities. If it was out there, easily collectable, the TM would exist already.


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Fernando Toledo  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:43
German to Spanish
Are you speaking about ... Aug 26, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:



So I would like to have a TM that:

-Has the name and "impresum" of the person in charge for that TM, just in case it provides some illegal information
-is very, very, very big, but quick
-searchable by creator, date, language, etc
-with lots of pictures or even videos for terminology
-with terminology tool
-with terminology tool scalable
-multilingual
-with lots of literary works translated (you can call the Cultural Heritage Unit at the European Commission to show interest, so that they can boost collaboration between the libraries everywhere)


Your turn!!!

[Editado a las 2008-08-26 11:23]


... Internet?


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 04:43
English to French
+ ...
A few of mine Aug 26, 2008

- TUs are labeled with their subject matters so they can be searched by subject matter, or so that the list of results can be refined using such a subject matter label
- the TM contains parallel texts from governments
- TUs are labeled with confidence levels. I think two different confidence levels can be used. One would be established by a committee and another by the users of the TM (when you find a TU, you have the option to grade it and the average of all ratings collected is displayed along with the TU). This would be similar to download.com ratings: one by the editor and one by the users (I have a tendency to trust the latter more than the former, but with language, this may be reversed).


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Gabriela Mejías  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 05:43
English to Spanish
+ ...
I don't want a global TM... Aug 26, 2008

... simply because it would violate confidentiality, which is clearly stated in the Codes of Ethics from different associations around the world:

FIT

Fédération Internationale des Traducteurs

The Translator's Charter (approved by the Congress at Dubrovnik in 1963,

and amended in Oslo on July 9, 1994)



General obligations of the translator

Rights of the translator

Economic and social position of the translator

Translators' societies and unions

National organizations and the International Federation of Translators


11. Being a "secondary" author, the translator is required to accept special obligations with respect to the author of the original work.

12. He/she must obtain from the author of the original work or from the user authorization to translate a work, and must furthermore respect all other rights vested in the author.

http://www.fit-ift.org/en/charter.php#oblig

National Judiciary Interpreters and Translators (US):
Code of Ethics and
Professional Responsibilities

Canon 3. Confidentiality

Privileged or confidential information acquired in the course of interpreting or preparing a translation shall not be disclosed by the interpreter or translator without authorization.

Code of professional conduct
Institute of Translation & Interpreting, UK


3.5 Confidentiality
3.5.1. Members shall maintain complete confidentiality at all times and treat any information which may come to them in the course of their work as privileged information, not to be communicated to any third party without authority. They shall also require all those assisting them in their work to be similarly bound, subject to 4.4.4 below.
http://www.iti.org.uk/pdfs/newPDF/20FHConductIn_(04-08).pdf

ASOCIACIÓN ARGENTINA DE TRADUCTORES E INTÉRPRETES-


IV.2 PRINCIPIO DE CONFIDENCIALIDAD

14 El traductor se comprometerá a no divulgar la información recibida
durante la ejecución de su trabajo y a no utilizarla en beneficio propio o de terceros, o en perjuicio de terceros.

15 Todo texto –o su reproducción por cualquier medio– es propiedad del cliente y no puede darse a conocer sin su consentimiento, excepto en casos extremos, en que causas de fuerza mayor o la Justicia así lo requieran.

16 En caso de trabajo en equipo o de subcontratación, el traductorcoordinador deberá exigir la misma confidencialidad por parte de los demás integrantes del equipo.

http://www.aati.org.ar/prueba/docs/codigo_de_etica.pdf

CÓDIGO DE ÉTICA
Colegio de Traductores Públicos de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires


SECRETO PROFESIONAL

Art. 20 - La relación entre profesional y cliente debe desarrollarse dentro de la más absoluta reserva y confianza. El profesional no debe divulgar asunto alguno sin la autorización expresa de su cliente, ni utilizar en su favor, o en el de terceros, el conocimiento de los asuntos de su cliente, adquirido como resultado de su labor profesional.

Art. 21 - Está relevado de su obligación de guardar secreto profesional cuando imprescindiblemente debe revelar sus conocimientos para su defensa personal, en la medida en que la información que proporcione sea insustituible.

http://tinyurl.com/5a2st4

Code of Professional Conduct and Business Practices
(American Translators Association)


I. As a Translator or Interpreter, a bridge for ideas from one language to another and one culture to another, I commit myself to the hightest standards of performance, ethical behavior, and business practices.

[...]

C. I will safeguard the interests of my clientes as my own and divulge no confidential information.

http://atanet.org/membership/code_of_pro...onduct.php

Code of Professional Conduct
Chartered Institute of Linguists, UK


3.11 Subject to 3.13, Practitioners shall treat as confidential any information they acquire through a commission of work. They shall not disclose such information to a third party unless instructed by the Principal to do so, and provided that such disclosure would not be unlawful or infringe the rights of any party concerned. Such information may include, for example, working practices, lists of clients, commercial secrets and manufacturing or technological processes.

http://www.iol.org.uk/Charter/CLS/Codeof...7Nov07.pdf




[Edited at 2008-08-26 19:11]


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Fernando D. Walker  Identity Verified

Local time: 05:43
English to Spanish
+ ...
Me neither Aug 26, 2008

It is not a question of wishes and sharing, it is a matter of CONFIDENTIALITY.

ARGENTINE CIVIL CODE.
Libro tercero de los derechos reales. Título IV

Artículo 2503.
Son derechos reales: 1 - El dominio y el condominio; 2 - El usufructo; 3 - El uso y la habitación; 4 - Las servidumbres activas; 5 - El derecho de hipoteca; 6 - La prenda; 7 - La anticresis.

http://www.justiniano.com/codigos_juridi...codciv.htm

Del dominio de las cosas y del modo de adquirirlas:

Artículo 2506.-
El dominio es el derecho real en virtud del cual una cosa se encuentra sometida a la voluntad y a la acción de una persona.


Artículo 2508.-
El dominio es exclusivo. Dos personas no pueden tener cada una en el todo el dominio de una cosa; mas pueden ser propietarias en común de la misma cosa, por la parte que cada una pueda tener.


Artículo 2511.-
Nadie puede ser privado de su propiedad sino por causa de utilidad pública, previa la desposesión y una justa indemnización. Se entiende por justa indemnización en este caso, no sólo el pago del valor real de la cosa, sino también del perjuicio directo que le venga de la privación de su propiedad.

http://www.justiniano.com/codigos_juridi...itulo5.htm


COLEGIO DE TRADUCTORES
DE LA PROVINCIA DE SANTA FE
Primera Circunscripción

CÓDIGO DE ÉTICA

CONDUCTA PROFESIONAL


Artículo 20:
La relación entre Profesional y Cliente debe desarrollarse dentro de la más absoluta reserva y confianza. El Matriculado guardará estricto secreto profesional y no divulgará asunto alguno sin la autorización expresa de su Cliente; tampoco utilizará en su propio favor ni en el de terceros el conocimiento de los asuntos de aquél, adquirido durante el ejercicio de su labor profesional.

Artículo 21:
El Matriculado estará relevado de su obligación de guardar secreto profesional cuando imprescindiblemente deba revelar sus conocimientos para su defensa personal, o cuando le sea requerido por la justicia, en la medida en que la información que proporcione sea insustituible.


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 04:43
English to French
+ ...
Still, if permission is sought and obtained... Aug 26, 2008

I don't see anything wrong with the idea as long as permission to publish such TMs is obtained. Of course, a translator would first have to check if they are allowed to publish. Unless...

Also, to my knowledge, even though the copyright of the translation becomes the property of the client once the work is paid for, I believe that the copyright for the TM remains with the translator (unless the client buys the copyright for the TM as well).

I appreciate the codes of ethics of the above mentioned organisations, but frankly, most of it isn't clear enough to clearly define what does and what doesn't constitute such "information". I think we are in the presence of a grey zone here.

Anybody can clear that up?


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Felipe Gútiez  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:43
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Please, this is my thread, the thread is the global TM I want... Aug 26, 2008

Fernando, Gabriela I respect your opinions but unfortunately they don´t fit the thread. You can very well propose a thread like Why a global TM should be avoided, for example.

In Internet there is plenty of room for everybody


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Felipe Gútiez  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:43
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Internet but in .tmx format :-) Aug 26, 2008

Fernando Toledo wrote:

Felipe Gútiez wrote:



So I would like to have a TM that:

-Has the name and "impresum" of the person in charge for that TM, just in case it provides some illegal information
-is very, very, very big, but quick
-searchable by creator, date, language, etc
-with lots of pictures or even videos for terminology
-with terminology tool
-with terminology tool scalable
-multilingual
-with lots of literary works translated (you can call the Cultural Heritage Unit at the European Commission to show interest, so that they can boost collaboration between the libraries everywhere)


Your turn!!!

[Editado a las 2008-08-26 11:23]


... Internet?


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Felipe Gútiez  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:43
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Is that not Logoport from Lionbridge? Aug 26, 2008

The tough bit is getting good material in large quantities. If it was out there, easily collectable, the TM would exist already. [/quote]

Apparently it exists: Logoport from Lionbridge. Does anyone have real contact, experience with this TM enviroment?. According to Lionbridge there are more than 14.000 translators working in perpetual collaboration with Lionbridge out there.... Would be very interested in knowing some first hand approach.

[Editado a las 2008-08-26 21:39]


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De la Vera Cruz
Argentina
Local time: 05:43
English to Spanish
They do fit... Aug 26, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:

Fernando, Gabriela I respect your opinions but unfortunately they don´t fit the thread. You can very well propose a thread like Why a global TM should be avoided, for example.

In Internet there is plenty of room for everybody



just because we can´t talk about a global TM without mentioning the risks we (as translators) would take if we shared our TMs on the Internet.

Verónica


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Luis Arri Cibils  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:43
Member (2003)
English to Spanish
+ ...
A requirement from a non-techy Aug 26, 2008

The system must be completely unable to record the TUs I sent to be translated and their translations. (Is it at all feasible?) Otherwise, the translator will have to ask the client's authorization to use it.

[Edited at 2008-08-26 22:50]


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Claudia Alvis  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 03:43
Partial member
Spanish
+ ...
It is coming, OK? And we need to do something Aug 26, 2008

Regardless of what's fair or not, LSPs don't need us to do anything. They already have the TMs anyway--and let's face it, they probably own them too. They use the bilingual files and they align their own TMs, so we're just the pawns. It doesn't even matter whether it's legal or even ethical, it's profitable and as Felipe said, it is coming.

MT never really bothered me, but this is way different. This isn't a technology that needs to be created or even perfected, everything already exists and the big guys just need to get together in order to make things work. By 'they' I mean the big corporations with their own localization department like Microsoft, Apple or HP, and the big LSPs, like Lionbridge. They're worried about cutting costs and make the whole localization process more efficient. And that's not a good thing for us.

But there are some issues that need to be pointed out. In my opinion (please let me know if I'm wrong) medium-sized and translators-owned companies have as much to lose as we do. They're bound by the contracts they sign with their clients. Just as we are. And even if we don't sign anything, it's just not a good thing to do from a marketing point of view. We can't just share the contents of our TMs. KudoZ is a different thing because TMs might have proprietary terms and confidential information, but most KudoZ entries only have general terms that can be found anywhere anyway.

So, projects like TAUS are created by LSPs members to make things more efficient, that's bad news for us. And eventually, more sooner than later, we are going to see the consequences reflected on the prices.

So my proposal is that instead of fighting them or joining them, why don't we create our own "Society". A society of translators that will manage our own databases. Managed by translators and for translators; not LSPs or Corporations. The society would have to abide by very strict rules that will guarantee certain points:


  • The databases will not violate any existing or potential confidentiality rules.

  • Each translator will make sure that the TUs don't contain any confidential information

  • All entries must pass a quality control

  • The definition of each entry should be specified in the TU's properties (languages, sub-languages, etc)

  • The TMs are property of the "Society" and shall not be used by any LSP or Company without the permission of the Society

  • The TMs will not be used as a leverage tool. None of its TUs will be used to modify any rate; that is as 100% nor Fuzzy Matches**


**The last point will guarantee that the database will benefit its translators not the outsourcers. And even those translators that do outsource, could not use it to apply any kind of discount since the TM would still belong to the Society, not to them.

I don't know how feasible this is. But this technology is coming no matter how much we fight it. We could try, but honestly I don't see how we can stop it. So let's get together and form our own society, that way, we can use this technology in order to befit us all.

What do you think?

Claudia

[Edited at 2008-08-27 01:05]


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Felipe Gútiez  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:43
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
TMM marketplace showed that "no problem at all with big corporations" Aug 27, 2008

I talked to mr. Zetsche from TM marketplace and he told they were just testing the corporations. He puts some TM on sale in internet and what happened?

http://www.tmmarketplace.com/

NOTHING
No trial, no judiciary process, no angry phone calls from corporations,

NOTHING AT ALL

Corporations need to sell commodities, not words. They don´t care at all about translation. They just "need" translation to show seriousness and to find their way into the markets. If translation are cheap, there is a cost less. That´s all

The thing is coming and all I want is to have a couple of really good professionals, meanly translators and writers, but also good developers, etc that make the difference at the desing phase.

If we are not proactive now, we will have to deal with a tool or some tools that don´t fit well our way of thinking and working.

[Editado a las 2008-08-27 06:42]


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Claudia Alvis  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 03:43
Partial member
Spanish
+ ...
So what's your solution Aug 27, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:

I talked to mr. Zetsche from TM marketplace and he told they were just testing the corporations. He puts som TM on sale in internet and what happened?

http://www.tmmarketplace.com/

NOTHING
No trial, no judiciary process, no angry phone calls from corporations,

NOTHING AT ALL

Corporations need to sell commodities, not words. They don´t care at all about translation. They just "need" translation to show seriousness and to find their way into the markets. If translation are cheap, there a cost less. That´s all

The thin is coming and all I want is to have a couple of really good professionals, meanly translators and writers, but also good developers, etc that make the difference.

If we are not proactive now, we will have to deal with a tool or some tools that don´t fit well our way of thinking and working.


From their point of view, why should they have to pay for databases, when they can manage them and use them for free? I agree, corporations don't care about translations but they do need them. So what's your solution, I mean we do need to do something but we need a starting point.


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