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Current state of TBX (TermBase eXchange) support in TEnTs.
Thread poster: Michael Beijer
Rodolfo Raya
Rodolfo Raya  Identity Verified
Local time: 04:24
English to Spanish
XCS requires source language Jun 26, 2011

FarkasAndras wrote:
I haven't used TBX much, but I don't expect that there is such a thing as a source text.


Don't expect, read the specification. A source language is declared in the root element of the .tbx part. Source language must also be declared at langSet level.

At a glance, TBX doesn't even seem to have anything like srclang and adminlang.


Read the specification document. Section 8.10 indicates that the declaration of a source language is required at two different levels (martif and langSet).

Administrative info must be entered in the language declared as source language.

Regards,
Rodolfo


 
FarkasAndras
FarkasAndras  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:24
English to Hungarian
+ ...
XCS Jun 27, 2011

Rodolfo Raya wrote:

FarkasAndras wrote:

Most of what you say is interesting but ultimately irrelevant for practical purposes for most users.

For instance, your explanation of why TBX is overkill doesn't hold water:
Rodolfo Raya wrote:

TBX is a markup framework. Two files are required for having a TBX document (a .tbx file plus a .xcs file that describes the data stored in the .tbx part).

To ship a termbase in real TBX format, you must ship 2 files.

That's just not true. As you probably know, XCS (eXtensible Constraint Specification) is an optional extra file that you may ship with your TMX if you want to limit the picklist items that a user can choose etc. Most of the time, there is no need to create or send one. It's just there for the sort of extensibility I was talking about above.


Please read the specification document for TBX. Item 2 of section 7.1 states that each TML must have a corresponding XCS file that describes all data categories used in the framework.

An example XCS file is included in the specification document and you can point your .tbx fles to it if, and only if, your data categories and language constraints match the provided sample set.

If you don't include an XCS file in your TML and if your data doesn't validate against that XCS file, your TML does not comply with TBX standard.

Regards,
Rodolfo



Again, mildly interesting but irrelevant for practical purposes. CATs just use the "sample set" provided with the standard, people send TBX files without an XCS, the TBXes work, no one reads the spec and everyone's happy.
I only read standards specifications when I have a problem to solve, and that's not the case with TBX.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 08:24
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
The "everyone's happy" standard Jun 27, 2011

FarkasAndras wrote:
CATs just use the "sample set" provided with the standard, people send TBX files without an XCS, the TBXes work, no one reads the spec and everyone's happy.


The "everyone's happy" standard is a pretty useful standard to follow if one is a freelance translator who understands both languages and who can troubleshoot anything that goes wrong. But it is not ideal for a project manager or people in a translation company who can't tell a working file from a broken one just by looking at it. And as one starts working on ever large and more complex projects, the requirement to "look" at each file at each step to ensure that nothing has broken yet becomes a burden. Compound this with a scenario in which translators, reviewers and project managers are in different time zones...

If people use TBX in a way that TBX was not intended, then they're not using real TBX -- they're just using something that looks and works roughly like TBX. The moment someone sends them a real TBX file, they might not be able to use it properly. Likewise, if they share terminology with someone who has a CAT tool that expects a real TBX file, the fancy CAT tool will either misinterpret the TBX file (by applying some default setting to it) or simply refuse to open it.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 08:24
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Rodolfo Jun 27, 2011

Rodolfo Raya wrote:
Each TML must have a corresponding XCS file that describes all data categories used in the framework. ... An example XCS file is included in the specification document and you can point your .tbx fles to it if ... your data categories and language constraints match the provided sample set.


Sure, but isn't this just like the DTD issue with HTML files? I mean, one could theoretically say that one needs to send two files with every HTML file (the HTML file and the DTD file), but in reality the DTD is either assumed by the browser according to some default, or it is downloaded from a specified web address. Can't the TBX file work the same way, i.e. if I place an XCS file on the web, can't I just point to it in the TBX file?


 
FarkasAndras
FarkasAndras  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:24
English to Hungarian
+ ...
? Jun 27, 2011

Is this conjecture or do you actually experience problems of this nature?
To my knowledge, nobody ever stated that sending TBX files without an XCS (and thus using the default XCS and TML) is somehow a misuse of the standard. To me, it appears to be just the opposite: this is the intended basic usage scenario.

LISA recently went bust, so their TBX page is down. I'm not even sure where to get a proper TBX spec. There's one here but honestly, it's not the first item on my reading list.
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Rodolfo Raya
Rodolfo Raya  Identity Verified
Local time: 04:24
English to Spanish
Location of XCS files Jun 27, 2011

Samuel Murray wrote:

Sure, but isn't this just like the DTD issue with HTML files? I mean, one could theoretically say that one needs to send two files with every HTML file (the HTML file and the DTD file), but in reality the DTD is either assumed by the browser according to some default, or it is downloaded from a specified web address. Can't the TBX file work the same way, i.e. if I place an XCS file on the web, can't I just point to it in the TBX file?


You can store your custom XCS file on the web and point your .tbx files to it. No problem at all if the XCS is available online. All that matters is making it available for validating the data.

Regards,
Rodolfo


 
Michael Beijer
Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:24
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
ETSI ISG LIS (more acronyms!) Jun 27, 2011

It seems that various former LISA OSCAR SIG standards (incl. TMX, SRX, TBX and GMX) have been, or are in the process of being, passed on to:

the "ETSI ISG LIS"

European Telecommunications Standards Institute
Industry Specification Group
Localisation Industry Standards

see:

  • http://www.gala-global.org/blog/2011/some-questions-on-etsi-and-localization-standards-an-interview-with-patrick-guillemin-etsi-secretariat/ +
  • http://www.gala-global.org/blog/2011/etsi-and-lisa-standards-what-does-it-mean/

    I have no idea what this will mean in practice to us as translators, but let's hope it's something positive.

    Everyone is free to join this newly formed ETSI industry specification group, and information can be found here:

  • http://www.multilingual.com/newsDetail.php?id=7958

    "The European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI), a producer of globally-applicable standards for information and communications technologies, has announced the formation of ETSI Industry Specification Group Localisation Industry Standards (ISG LIS).

    Membership is not required and anyone can participate in the development of TMX, SRX, TBX and GMX (former LISA OSCAR SIG standards).

    There is no cost for mailing list subscription, browsing of web archives, conference call attendance, and virtual meeting participation."
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    Rodolfo Raya
    Rodolfo Raya  Identity Verified
    Local time: 04:24
    English to Spanish
    TBX compliance and problems Jun 27, 2011

    FarkasAndras wrote:
    Is this conjecture or do you actually experience problems of this nature?


    There are actual problems. Microsoft's glossaries are written in something that looks like TBX but isn't.

    Until recently, Wordfast PRO produced ugly things called TBX that were quite far from being real TBX. Hopefully that has been fixed by now.

    Those wrong interpretation of the standard introduced real compatibility problems with a tool that expects real TBX.


    LISA recently went bust, so their TBX page is down. I'm not even sure where to get a proper TBX spec. There's one here but honestly, it's not the first item on my reading list.


    You can purchase the specification from ISO.

    Regards,
    Rodolfo


     
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