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Which CAT-tool can do this type of propagation besides ForeignDesk?
Thread poster: Katalin Horváth McClure

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 23:27
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Dec 13, 2007

I have a very specific question.
I have been using a tool called ForeignDesk for jobs coming from one of my clients.
It has one good feature that I have not seen in other tools (yet), but since there are so many CAT-tools out there, I want to know if anybody knows another tool that can do the same thing.
The feature I am talking about is called "Propagation", and it is a special way of handling repetitions. When there is a repetition, those are marked internally as "propagated segments", and only one copy of the translation is stored. (At least this is my guess for what is happening behind the scenes.) Each instance of that repetition is pointing to that single translation. What it means is that if the translation needs to be changed, you can edit just one of those instances (any one, anywhere in the project), and the change is immediately reflected on all instances across all files in the project without you doing anything. You don't even need to click a special button, just close the segment you updated.
Of course, you can turn off the propagation mark for certain instances if the particular context requires a different translation of the same term.

So, again, I am not looking for workarounds in other tools (such as running a cleanup in Trados with text update turned on, etc.), I am specifically looking for the same kind of functionality I described above. (I hope my explanation made sense.)

Anybody knows a CAT-tool that does just this?
Katalin


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Maurizio Valente  Identity Verified
Italy
English to Italian
+ ...
DVX is one of them Dec 13, 2007

but also SDLX, I believe.

You translate the segment the first time you come across with it. This translation is propagated to all identical segments (same source, target empty). The translation in the original segment acts as a master, while propagated translations are a sort of slaves.

In other terms, if you change your mind and edit your original translation, this modification will be automatically propagated to all other segments.

[Edited at 2007-12-13 14:55]


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 06:27
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
SDLX Dec 13, 2007

This is exactly what SDLX does. The more you translate the more gets ready towards the end of the text, until you suddenly notice: all done!
But it has pitfalls too, of course. Sometimes the context requires to translate the same segment differently.
Regards
Heinrich


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Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 23:27
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Please clarify - can I edit ANY of the propagated segments? Dec 13, 2007

Maurizio Valente wrote:

The translation in the original segment acts as a master, while propagated translations are a sort of slaves.

In other terms, if you change your mind and edit your original translation, this modification will be automatically propagated to all other segments.


Do you mean I have to edit the first instance in order to automatically modify all the others, or can I edit ANY of the propagated repetitions to have the same effect?


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Endre Both  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:27
Member (2002)
English to German
DéjàVu: You can edit any segment and propagate from there (with certain caveats) Dec 13, 2007

Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:
can I edit ANY of the propagated repetitions to have the same effect?


In DVX, you can edit any segment and propagate changes to all identical segments, provided that none of these segments are protected from changes (by marking them as "Finished", "Locked" etc.

It's a great feature, however, in DVX it's not without pitfalls (some long segments are not propagated in spite of being identical, and numbers are sometimes messed up). Atril (DVX's vendor) is currently working on these problems.

Endre


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Denis HAY  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:27
English to French
Quite a few indeed... Dec 13, 2007

Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:

Anybody knows a CAT-tool that does just this?


MemoQ, DejaVu X and SDLX all do this. I'm pretty sure that Heartsome too, but not 100% for this last one.


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Luca Ruella  Identity Verified
United States
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
Repetition Dec 13, 2007

Heinrich Pesch wrote:

This is exactly what SDLX does. The more you translate the more gets ready towards the end of the text, until you suddenly notice: all done!
But it has pitfalls too, of course. Sometimes the context requires to translate the same segment differently.
Regards
Heinrich


Hello Heinrich,

SDLX handles IR brilliantly! If the context is different and you need to give a different translation, just change the segment text and confirm it. It will be excluded from the IR group and be handled separately!

Transit does it too but not as cleverly...

Cheers

Luca

[Edited at 2007-12-13 16:18]


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xxxMarc P  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:27
German to English
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Propagation Dec 13, 2007

It's an integral part of OmegaT.

Marc


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Maurizio Valente  Identity Verified
Italy
English to Italian
+ ...
Negative Dec 13, 2007

Q: Do you mean I have to edit the first instance in order to automatically modify all the others, or can I edit ANY of the propagated repetitions to have the same effect?
A: The standard procedure would be editing the first instance without touching all the others. The rationale behind is getting consistency, ie identical phrases translated exactly in the same way.
But nothing prevents from editing the propagated segments. In principle, you might have, say, 10 different translations of the same source text. In some cases, having different translations may be reasonable. Usually this is the case of single word segments, where the single word may assume different meanings within the same document or translation project. An example might be 'Title', which has a certain meaning in legalese and another meaning in a HR context.


Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:

Maurizio Valente wrote:

The translation in the original segment acts as a master, while propagated translations are a sort of slaves.

In other terms, if you change your mind and edit your original translation, this modification will be automatically propagated to all other segments.


Do you mean I have to edit the first instance in order to automatically modify all the others, or can I edit ANY of the propagated repetitions to have the same effect?


[Edited at 2007-12-13 17:45]


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Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 23:27
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
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Maurizio, this is not what I meant Dec 13, 2007

I am sorry if my question was ambiguous.
This is what I meant:

Imagine that I have a huge file, with many many segments that each have a lot of repetitions.
Let's assume one of these segments is "Profile", and I have 500 of this scattered around the text.
I start translating the file, and when I first see the word "Profile" I translate it as if this meant a person's datasheet, like the one we have here on ProZ, and it gets propagated throughout the file.
However, after going through a considerable part of the file, I realize that I misinterpreted it, and they actually meant a picture in profile style, that is when the person is looking to the side.
At this point I am at the 300th instance of "Profile", and I need to change the translation of all instances. Can I do that right there, with my cursor on the 300th "Profile" and get it propagated automatically for all other 499 instances including those that are in the earlier part of the file, or do I have to find the first instance and correct it there?

Additional question: what happens if my project is not one single file, but several smaller ones - how does the propagation and subsequent editing of the propagated translations work then?


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 06:27
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
Along with the first occurence Dec 13, 2007

The first time you translate Blabla to trotro, all subsequent segments of BlaBla will change to trotro in the target text. If you change your mind and go back to the first instance and change it to frefre, all others are changed automatically (if you have not translated them seperately and confirmed).

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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 05:27
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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OmegaT Dec 13, 2007

Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:
The feature I am talking about is called "Propagation", and it is a special way of handling repetitions.


OmegaT does it, but you can't switch it off.

Wordfast doesn't do it, but if you re-open a segment that was changed elsewhere, Wordfast puts a red box around the segment to warn you that the text on screen is not the text in the TM.


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Soonthon LUPKITARO(Ph.D.)  Identity Verified
Thailand
Local time: 11:27
Partial member (2004)
English to Thai
+ ...
SDLX propagation Dec 14, 2007

I support using SDLX.
The standard procedure would be editing the first instance. The rationale behind is identical phrases translated exactly in the same way. In some cases, having different translations may be reasonable.
I also met with pitfalls: I retranslate the segment and all unconfirmed translations change downward. I need to recheck them again.

Regards,
Soonthon L.


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Maurizio Valente  Identity Verified
Italy
English to Italian
+ ...
I'll try to explain Dec 14, 2007

I understand I'm giving too many things for granted.

You wrote: 'At this point I am at the 300th instance ...'

I gave for granted that
1. Given a project of say, 100 files, you can import them in DVX, even if they are a combination of MS Word, Excel, Powerpoint etc etc files and see them all together as if they were ONE file.
2. You can also sort all segments by alphabetical order.

So you are at the 300th instance and click on the alpha sort icon (a toggle, actually) and will see all instances of Profile (they are adjacent, consecutive ...). However all but the one (499 of them) are colored in a certain way that means 'I am a propagated segment'. On the contrary, the original one is marked in a different way, that says: 'I am the Master translation'. You have to look for this one and edit it. All the remaining 499 segments will magically reflect your modification.

This operation takes just a few seconds and is very simple - much simpler that explaining it.


About yr 2nd question, I think I have already answered. It is like having ONE file.

Ah, and the same considerations should hold for SDLX, I suppose.

If I can give you a suggestion, download a trial version of DVX and try to put this into practise. It is an excellent CAT Tool.


Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:

I am sorry if my question was ambiguous.
This is what I meant:

Imagine that I have a huge file, with many many segments that each have a lot of repetitions.
Let's assume one of these segments is "Profile", and I have 500 of this scattered around the text.
I start translating the file, and when I first see the word "Profile" I translate it as if this meant a person's datasheet, like the one we have here on ProZ, and it gets propagated throughout the file.
However, after going through a considerable part of the file, I realize that I misinterpreted it, and they actually meant a picture in profile style, that is when the person is looking to the side.
At this point I am at the 300th instance of "Profile", and I need to change the translation of all instances. Can I do that right there, with my cursor on the 300th "Profile" and get it propagated automatically for all other 499 instances including those that are in the earlier part of the file, or do I have to find the first instance and correct it there?

Additional question: what happens if my project is not one single file, but several smaller ones - how does the propagation and subsequent editing of the propagated translations work then?


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Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 23:27
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, Maurizio Dec 14, 2007

Your explanation makes everything clear now, thank you very much.
Katalin


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