The correct usage of two DEs
Thread poster: yao-yao wei
yao-yao wei
United States
Local time: 15:45
Chinese to English
+ ...
Apr 23, 2003

Hi,



Recently, I got into a discussion with a client about the correct usage of 的and 得. It turned out that we had different opinions. In fact, these two words don\'t usually affect the outcome of the translation, however, it\'s just like gravel in the shoes that feels irritated when you are told to correct DEs.

So here is an example

我說DE或許你並不同意

Which DE is correct?

Any input will be helpful. Thanks in advance.



yao


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:45
English to Chinese
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Very interesting! Apr 23, 2003

Quote:


On 2003-04-23 19:37, yao wrote:

Hi,



Recently, I got into a discussion with a client about the correct usage of 的and 得. It turned out that we had different opinions. In fact, these two words don\'t usually affect the outcome of the translation, however, it\'s just like gravel in the shoes that feels irritated when you are told to correct DEs.

So here is an example

我說DE或許你並不同意

Which DE is correct?

Any input will be helpful. Thanks in advance.



yao





In this case, I would prefer to use “的“。

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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:45
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
的、地、得 Apr 24, 2003

Quote:


On 2003-04-23 19:37, yao wrote:

In fact, these two words don\'t usually affect the outcome of the translation, however, it\'s just like gravel in the shoes that feels irritated when you are told to correct DEs.

So here is an example

我說DE或許你並不同意

Which DE is correct?



yao





yao,



你好!



你提出的问题值得重视。虽然“的、地、得”都很普通,但是我认为我们从事翻译工作的人都应该按照课本走,不要混用。我常常见到翻译的作品中出现“的、地、得”混用的现象,常以为可能是打错字了,看来有必要在这里讨论一下。简单地说,“的、地、得”的用法如下:



“的”是用来接代词、形容词和动词的,使所连接的代词、形容词和动词成为定语来修饰或限定后面的名词。比如:我的书;美丽的花;翻译的小说,写的字画,等等。



“地”是用来接形容词的,使所连接的形容词成为副词来修饰后面的动词。比如:简单地说;努力地学;忘我地工作,等等。



“得”是用来接动词的,使所接的动词能够接受后面形容词的修饰。比如:说得好;翻译得准确;生活得很幸福,等等。



在你的句子“我說DE或許你並不同意”中,应该使用“的”。在这句话中,短语“我说的”把动词所修饰的名词“话”给省略了,因该是“我说的话”,全句应该写成“我說的话或許你並不同意”。该短语用作前置宾语,形成倒装。为了便于理解,这个句子可以写成“或許你並不同意我說的话”,或者“或許你並不同意我所說的话”。



yao, 你同意我的意见吗?(或者说,你同意我说的话吗?)





[ This Message was edited by: TongliUSA on 2003-04-24 19:20]

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yao-yao wei
United States
Local time: 15:45
Chinese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks. Apr 24, 2003

Quote:


On 2003-04-23 20:05, BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:

Quote:


On 2003-04-23 19:37, yao wrote:

Hi,



Recently, I got into a discussion with a client about the correct usage of 的and 得. It turned out that we had different opinions. In fact, these two words don\'t usually affect the outcome of the translation, however, it\'s just like gravel in the shoes that feels irritated when you are told to correct DEs.

So here is an example

我說DE或許你並不同意

Which DE is correct?

Any input will be helpful. Thanks in advance.



yao





In this case, I would prefer to use “的“。



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yao-yao wei
United States
Local time: 15:45
Chinese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, Kevin, it's very helpful. Apr 24, 2003

Quote:


On 2003-04-24 01:20, TongliUSA wrote:

Quote:


On 2003-04-23 19:37, yao wrote:

In fact, these two words don\'t usually affect the outcome of the translation, however, it\'s just like gravel in the shoes that feels irritated when you are told to correct DEs.

So here is an example

我說DE或許你並不同意

Which DE is correct?



yao





yao,



你好!



你提出的问题值得重视。虽然“的、地、得”都很普通,但是我认为我们从事翻译工作的人都应该按照课本走,不要混用。我常常见到翻译的作品中出现“的、地、得”混用的现象,常以为可能是打错字了,看来有必要在这里讨论一下。简单地说,“的、地、得”的用法如下:



“的”是用来接代词、形容词和动词的,使所连接的代词、形容词和动词成为定语来修饰或限定后面的名词。比如:我的书;美丽的花;翻译的小说,写的字画,等等。



“地”是用来接形容词的,使所连接的形容词成为副词来修饰后面的动词。比如:简单地说;努力地学;忘我地工作,等等。



“得”是用来接动词的,使所接的动词能够接受后面形容词的修饰。比如:说得好;翻译得准确;生活得很幸福,等等。



在你的句子“我說DE或許你並不同意”中,应该使用“的”。在这句话中,短语“我说的”把动词所修饰的名词“话”给省略了,因该是“我说的话”,全句应该写成“我說的话或許你並不同意”。该短语用作前置宾语,形成倒装。为了便于理解,这个句子可以写成“或許你並不同意我說的话”,或者“或許你並不同意我所說的话”。



yao, 你同意我的意见吗?(或者说,你同意我说的话吗?)







[ This Message was edited by: TongliUSA on 2003-04-24 19:20]



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kin
Local time: 18:45
Chinese
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Cantonese? Apr 26, 2003

Hi,



I find this topic very interesting. I am a Cantonese speaker. To me, both  and 眔 are ok. 眔 can also mean \"alright\" from my linguistic feeling. I also checked this in Xiandai Hanyu Cidian.



My rough interpretation of the two senses:



и弧┪砛\ぃ種

You may not agree with what I said.



и弧眔┪砛\ぃ種

I said it\'s alright; you may not agree though.



I think dialectal use of words is involved in this case. What do others think?



Kin



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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:45
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
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An interesting input. Apr 28, 2003

Quote:


On 2003-04-26 19:45, kin wrote:

Hi,



I find this topic very interesting. I am a Cantonese speaker. To me, both  and 眔 are ok. 眔 can also mean \"alright\" from my linguistic feeling. I also checked this in Xiandai Hanyu Cidian.



My rough interpretation of the two senses:



и弧┪砛\ぃ種

You may not agree with what I said.



и弧眔┪砛\ぃ種

I said it\'s alright; you may not agree though.



I think dialectal use of words is involved in this case. What do others think?



Kin







Hello, Kin



Thank you for your participation in the discussion. You gave an interesting input. I cannot speak Cantonese, so I do not find myself in a position to make any comment to your explanation.



Kevin

[ This Message was edited by: TongliUSA on 2003-04-29 15:54]

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Kvasir
Canada
Local time: 16:45
English to Chinese
+ ...
as a cantonese speaker... May 1, 2003

Quote:


On 2003-04-26 19:45, kin wrote:

Hi,



I find this topic very interesting. I am a Cantonese speaker. To me, both  and 眔 are ok. 眔 can also mean \"alright\" from my linguistic feeling. I also checked this in Xiandai Hanyu Cidian.



My rough interpretation of the two senses:



и弧┪砛\ぃ種

You may not agree with what I said.



и弧眔┪砛\ぃ種

I said it\'s alright; you may not agree though.



I think dialectal use of words is involved in this case. What do others think?



Kin







yep definitely make a difference in cantonese whether which DE was used. But obviously the two sentences would sound different in cantonese, not even \"de\" will be used:



и弧┪砛\ぃ種(mandarin)

и量o琂,┪砛\種(cantonese)



и弧眔┪砛\ぃ種(mandarin)

и杠o━,┪砛\種(cantonese)



Indeed the distinction is made in cantonese. Possessive DE are always replaced by the cantonese o琂. \"┪砛\\" is rather rare in cantonese anyway,  is more colloquial.



whereas 眔 is used differently:

弧и弧眔癸ぃ癸? (man.)

杠и量眔o━o━? (can.)

(Tell me whether what I said was right or not.)



note the usage of 眔 is the same in both dialects, but note the difference in the three usages of \"say\" here. That\'s another topic altogether...



but if 眔 was replaced by  here it will produced an entire different sense for this example:



弧и弧,癸ぃ癸? (man.)

杠и量o琂,玒玒? (can.)

(You say I said it, don\'t you?)



note the switching to  requires the use of a comma. Also the o琂 (ge2) in this case would have a different tone than the possessive o琂 (ge3).



-kvasir

[ This Message was edited by: Kvasir on 2003-05-01 19:37]

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cntranslation
China
Local time: 06:45
Japanese to Chinese
+ ...
补充一些…… May 3, 2003

kevin说的很到位。

补充一些别的:

1、“地”还有名词用法,读“di”,去声,如“土地”“田地”“地道”(名词,形容词);

2、“得”还有动词用法,读“de”,扬声,如“得到”,“获得”。

北京俚语,“得”。


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:45
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Here comes the English translation of my anwser that Hamo requested. Jun 20, 2003

Kiu Sau (Hamo)

Thank you for your email. Per your request, I translated my answer into English. I hope it serves your need.

I am impressed by your diligence in learning Chinese language. I wish I have the will power to learn French, which I tried to learn while I was a college student.

As for using this piece of writing in EARTH's Tsong Kit for Beginners website, please feel free to do so. But be sure to credit it to my name. It is purely my own writing and I am proud of my Chinese grammar skills.

Merce!

Kevin Yang

_____________________________________

You raised a question that we all should pay good attention to. 的, 地, 得 are commonly used in Chinese Han language, and they all pronounced as “de” in soft tone. Each of them is created for a purpose and has its own defined usage. But I often see people using them without differentiation. I also noticed a trend of using的 to replace all those places where 地 should be used. I think we translators should use these three characters by strictly following the rules we learned from our textbooks and set good examples for our readers.

The following is a brief summary of the standard usages of 的, 地, 得:

的 is used to connect with pronoun, adjective and verb and make these characters into attributives to modify or specify the noun behind it. For example: 我的書, 美麗的花, 翻譯的小說, 寫的字畫, etc.

地 is used to connect with an adjective and turn the adjective into an adverb to modify the verb behind it. For example: 簡單地說, 努力地學, 忘我地工作,etc.

得is used to connect the verb located before it, and make this verb to be ready to accept the modification of an adjective in behind. For example: 說得好, 翻譯得準確, 生活得很幸福, etc.

As for your question in term of which 的, 地, 得 should be used in the sentence “我說DE或許你並不同意”, I say “的” should be used at where “DE” is located. In this sentence, the phrase “我說的” omitted the noun 話 that it modifies. The full phrase should be written as “我說的話”, and the full sentence should be written as “我說的話或許你並不同意”。In this sentence, the phrase“我說的話” serves as an objective clause that is moved to the beginning of the sentence and formed an inverted sentence structure. For your easy understanding, this sentence can be written as “或許你並不同意我說的話”, or “或許你並不同意我所說的話”.


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