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Is this a normal hiding behavior for a translator?
Thread poster: Kevin Yang

Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
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Jul 21, 2003

What would be considered as "normal" behaviors for a translator to "Hide" his/her answers?

ProZ.com has been so humane that it offers "Hide" feature to every posted KudoZ answer and Forum message. I think it is a nice feature to have for those who needs to use it occasionally.

I confess that I only used it once during my entire membership with ProZ.com. I misunderstood a KudoZ question and gave a wrong answer. But after I did that, I switched it right back and let it be displayed for everyone to see, because I believe this is a discussion room and mistake is allowed and, most importantly, the peer translators would appreciate to see the process of the discussion, and the trail of brainstorm that an appropriate answer is developed, and this way can help other translator to learn how to tackle a translation. From then on, whenever I feel I need to revise my previous answer, I simply add on new notes within my first posting. If I agree with another translator's translation or see something is better than mind, I would make a comment within my posted answer.

The strange thing happened in the Chinese-English language pairs. There is such a Chinese translator seems "care" very much about the "cleanness" of her record or trail. As a moderator, I can see this Chinese translator uses this "Hide" feature far more frequently than any other translators, by rough count there are over 40 KudoZ answers now containing double or triple entries. I took time and reviewed her KudoZ records and found the "Hide" fell into the following patterns:
(1) The first posted answer was not correct, after saw other translators' answers, she hides her previous answer and re-post a fresh one; Surprisingly enough, she got quite number of KudoZ points by playing this trick!
(2) There is a typo in the answer, then she hides this one and re-post a fresh one;
(3) The reference info provided needs to revise in the first answer, then she hides it and re-post it with different references provided.

Is this really necessary? What is the integrity and honesty here? Has the "Hide" feature got abused in this case. I wonder if this is acceptable or would be considered as normal hiding behavior for a translator.

Kevin



[Edited at 2003-07-22 15:36]


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Kvasir
Canada
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wow what an eye opener! Jul 21, 2003

wow i didn't realise there is such a trick, or some ppl would do that kind of thing. Why not just use the "additional notes" option if it is to correct a typo?

I use HIDE to eliminate an answer if mine turns out to be an identical entry to the previous answer. It happens when 2 answerers submit their answers together within couple of minutes. Of course no entry would show up when the answerers first arrived at the page. In that case i would use hide for my answer so the asker has one less thing to decide!

However i would keep my answer up if there's an extra little bit of info or reference in my answer so the asker can take his pick.

other than that, i don't think i'd use HIDE any other way.

-kvasir


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
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Thank you for telling us what you think! Jul 22, 2003

BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:

Isn't it a good idea to hide my answer if:
1) I am much dissatisfied with my own answer;
2) I have made a mistake or typo which I feel extremely uncomfortable with;
3) My answer is identical to that of the previous answerer;
4) The reference is not well chosen, yet the graders keep giving "agree"s.

IMHO, if I don't make my answers of (1),(2), and (4) invisible, I will blame myself for giving wrong or bad answers which may lead the askers go astray; If I keep answering questions of (3) without hiding them when finding them already perfectly answered by the previous answerer(s), I will get successive emails and keep saying "Thanks!"

Personally speaking, I really enjoy the "hide answer" function in the KudoZ section and the ability to use it. In the meantime, I would like to hear my colleagues' enlightening viewpoints in this regard.

Thank you in advance!


Betty,

Thank you for posting your message in a different folder. Actually, we already have a folder established here to discuss the proper hiding beheviors. I am gald we both have the same topic in mind. Thank you for telling us what you think about it.

I will try my best to comprehend your reasons and get back to you later. It seems to me a case by case study perhaps would be more helpful to understand the normal hiding behaviors.

Kevin



[Edited at 2003-07-23 03:06]


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xxxchance
French to Chinese
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赞赏理解精神 Jul 22, 2003

BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:

Isn't it a good idea to hide my answer if:
1) I am much dissatisfied with my own answer;
2) I have made a mistake or typo which I feel extremely uncomfortable with;
3) My answer is identical to that of the previous answerer;
4) The reference is not well chosen, yet the graders keep giving "agree"s.

IMHO, if I don't make my answers of (1),(2), and (4) invisible, I will blame myself for giving wrong or bad answers which may lead the askers go astray; If I keep answering questions of (3) without hiding them when finding them already perfectly answered by the previous answerer(s), I will get successive emails and keep saying "Thanks!"

Personally speaking, I really enjoy the "hide answer" function in the KudoZ section and the ability to use it. In the meantime, I would like to hear my colleagues' enlightening viewpoints in this regard.

Thank you in advance!


我认为BETTY的论据充足,可行。尽管我自己一直是按KVASIR的做法,只有在重复答题的时候才使用HIDE。

Kevin Yang wrote:

Betty,

Thank you for posting your message in a different folder. Actually, we already have a folder established here to discuss the proper hiding beheviors. I am gald we both have the same topic in mind. Thank you for telling us your reasons behind it.

I will try my best to comprehend your reasons and get back to you later. It seems to me a case by case study perhaps would be more helpful to all of us to understand the normal hiding behaviors.

Kevin


我赞赏KEVIN能够抱着理解的态度,分析探讨。


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
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Kevin: When did you do it? Jul 22, 2003

Kevin Yang wrote:

BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:

Isn't it a good idea to hide my answer if:
1) I am much dissatisfied with my own answer;
2) I have made a mistake or typo which I feel extremely uncomfortable with;
3) My answer is identical to that of the previous answerer;
4) The reference is not well chosen, yet the graders keep giving "agree"s.

IMHO, if I don't make my answers of (1),(2), and (4) invisible, I will blame myself for giving wrong or bad answers which may lead the askers go astray; If I keep answering questions of (3) without hiding them when finding them already perfectly answered by the previous answerer(s), I will get successive emails and keep saying "Thanks!"

Personally speaking, I really enjoy the "hide answer" function in the KudoZ section and the ability to use it. In the meantime, I would like to hear my colleagues' enlightening viewpoints in this regard.

Thank you in advance!


Betty,

Thank you for posting your message in a different folder. Actually, we already have a folder established here to discuss the proper hiding beheviors. I am gald we both have the same topic in mind. Thank you for telling us your reasons behind it.

I will try my best to comprehend your reasons and get back to you later. It seems to me a case by case study perhaps would be more helpful to all of us to understand the normal hiding behaviors.

Kevin

I posted this topic in the "KudoZ.Net" section yesterday afternoon, but this morning it was moved to the Chinese forum. Was that done by you? Since my topic is KudoZ-related , I don't see any reason that it should be moved in the Chinese forum.


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
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You are entitled to post anywhere you want, so do I to move it to where fits best. Jul 22, 2003

BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:

I posted this topic in the "KudoZ.Net" section yesterday afternoon, but this morning it was moved to the Chinese forum. Was that done by you? Since my topic is KudoZ-related , I don't see any reason that it should be moved in the Chinese forum.


Betty,

As a regular member, you are entitled to post your messages anywhere you want, but as a moderator, I am entitled to move the folder to where it fits the best.

Yes, you posted your message in "KudoZ.Net" then, and now in "ProZ.com: Translators Coop" AFTER you read my message in the Chinese Forum to discuss what is the normal hiding behavor in KudoZ answers. Remember, the invlved party is a CHINESE translator, and the KudoZ answers are in CHINESE-ENGLISH language pairs. I think that message posted by you fits here better than any other locations. So I DID transfer your folder to the Chinese Forum.

I think where you want to post your response to this topic is NOT really important. Your direct comments to this discussion is rather more valuable.

For those who would like to read the above-mentioned related discussion in "ProZ.com, Translators Coop", please visit:

http://www.proz.com/topic/12800

Cheers!

Kevin


[Edited at 2003-07-22 20:54]


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
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A Story that'll go down in History... Jul 22, 2003

Kevin Yang wrote:

What would be considered as "normal" behaviors for a translator to "Hide" his/her answers?

ProZ.com has been so humane that it offers "Hide" feature to every posted KudoZ answer and Forum message. I think it is a nice feature to have for those who needs to use it occasionally.

I confess that I only used it once during my entire membership with ProZ.com. I misunderstood a KudoZ question and gave a wrong answer. But after I did that, I switched it right back and let it be displayed for everyone to see, because I believe this is a discussion room and mistake is allowed and, most importantly, the peer translators would appreciate to see the process of the discussion, and the trail of brainstorm that an appropriate answer is developed, and this way can help other translator to learn how to tackle a translation. From then on, whenever I feel I need to revise my previous answer, I simply add on new notes within my first posting. If I agree with another translator's translation or see something is better than mind, I would make a comment within my posted answer.

The strange thing happened in the Chinese-English language pairs. There is such a Chinese translator seems "care" very much about the "cleanness" of her record or trail. As a moderator, I can see this Chinese translator uses this "Hide" feature far more frequently than any other translators, by rough count there are over 40 KudoZ answers now containing double or triple entries. I took time and reviewed her KudoZ records and found the "Hide" fell into the following patterns:
(1) The first posted answer was not correct, after saw other translators' answers, she hides her previous answer and re-post a fresh one; Surprisingly enough, she got quite number of KudoZ points by playing this trick!
(2) There is a typo in the answer, then she hides this one and re-post a fresh one;
(3) The reference info provided needs to revise in the first answer, then she hides it and re-post it with different references provided.

Is this really necessary? What is the integrity and honesty here? Has the "Hide" feature got abused in this case. I wonder if this is acceptable or would be considered as normal hiding behavior for a translator.

Kevin



[Edited at 2003-07-22 15:36]


Maybe it's high time to let the dirt and filth be exposed to the sun and cleared. I know everybody is suspecting that the translator "abusing" the hide function in the thread post here could be me, now please allow me to make it clear that the "she" translator in that post is me, and that the story there is nowhere remotely near the truth.
As every normal person knows, the hide function of our Proz forum is a perfectly normal one that provides convenience to all members. Frankly, I didn't expect that things ridiculously abnormal could happen out of that.I have explicitly enumerated the reasons why I use the "hide function",
which are:

1) I am much dissatisfied with my own answer;
2) I have made a mistake or typo which I feel extremely uncomfortable with;
3) My answer is identical to that of the previous answerer;
4) The reference is not well chosen, yet the graders keep giving "agree"s.

It's lightyears far beneath me to even dream of playing tricks with the hide function to earn "points". What is the point of doing that? I come here to make friends, to talk to like minds ,and to help those who are interested in the translation between Chinese and English. Anyone who could generate this idea of my earning points by hiding out of their mind might be really out of their mind. Besides, I have answered a few thousand questions so far
on Proz, and thanks to our Chinese moderator I've just learned I've used
the "hide function" 40 times. I didn't realize there was somebody out there
who knew far better of what I'm doing here than myself until someone reminded me by some incomprehensible sentences. Please refer to :
www.proz.com/kudoz/483483.

Let me brief you on this most extraordinary story that is pitiably true:

Normally I would not go back checking what I've done on Proz, I have more important things to attend to as most people. One day in June I turned on my computer only to find email notifications of colleagues' agrees to the answer , the previous one of which I already hid the previous night. But my hidden answer reappeared! I
was surprised and thought something must be wrong with my computer that was really dated and ready to be replaced. Such incidents happened a few more times, I suspected some virus was working its way through my computer.
I complained to my computer-expert-husband, who dutifully examined the whole system and discovered nothing was wrong and everything was in order with the computer. But the weird phenomena kept popping up.

I needed Proz and I didn't want this bug keeping pestering me, so I wrote an email to the Proz technical support requesting the explanation and solution of this problem. They were efficient, friendly and considerate, spending hours doing tests with me. Their conclusion was that the
network system was technically sound and well and they informed that only moderators
had the ability to make a hidden post re-appear. I certainly did suspect something, but I really don't want to think ill of anybody, and I wished anybody committing that kind of stealthy act could stop and let everybody live their lives.

Then comes the best moment of the story --“真空包装”。 I made a typo I felt really uncomfortable with. It should be "packing", but I typed "parking", which was and still is intolerable to me, so I hid it and posted a fresh one. It appeared again, and I hid it again. When the text page was dark, I began to write a few notes to remind whoever doing that to stop,because I knew whoever doing that should be able to see my notes while others couldn't. But this post appeared three times after I hid it three times, and the last time with an "agree" and comments which I couldn't understand at all, just go to
www.proz.com/kudoz/483483
and you will see everything.

When I was still trapped in the feeling of disbelief and wondering how to end this without hurting anybody, I already found another unbelievable post at the Chinese Forum in which I was described as someone cheating points out of the "hide function".

Do I still have room to make concessions? No way!

All evidences point to the assumption that our Chinese moderator Kevin Yang has stealthily made my hidden answers reappear many times without any of my/our knowledge.

Kevin, did you or did you not do that? If you did, let me ask you: as a moderator, don't you have better things to do than pestering me with this absurdity? Do you have the basic working ethics? Do you still think you are qualified as a moderator of this forum that attracted so many elite
professionals? Don't you feel it's time for you to step down as a moderator and make way for others (I would be willing to recommend a few qualified candidates to the Proz management)?

Colleagues, give me your support!

Betty

For more information on this issue, please refer to:

www.proz.com/topic/12800


















[Edited at 2003-07-23 01:10]


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
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I paid attention to this issue for about a month now. Jul 22, 2003

Betty,

I hope we still stay on the topic we set for our discussion.

For the benefit of your curiosity, I have paid attention to this issue for about a month now. Your frequent usage of Hide feature standout among rest of translators. Fortunately, I was able and still can study each case and mke a decision on what is qualified to be hidden and what is NOT qualified to be hidden. If I see something not qualified to be hidden, I usually turn it on. It is one of the administrative priviliages that made available to all the moderators. I was not aware that my work would upset you so much. As matter of fact, I am still trying to comprehend why you are the ONLY one who has so many things to hide.


BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:

You mentioned my number of hidden answers(forty,which even I cannot remember) , but you forgot to mention the amount of questions that I have answered,which is approximately 2000-3000 or even more ( Sorry, no time to count them). A rough ratio of 40 to 2000+ is a lot smaller than 1/50.That is the very reason why you see me more frequently hide answers than other colleagues. Moreover, this reason is highly convincing as I answered far more questions than the average colleagues did.
[Edited at 2003-07-22 19:12]


Your math was completely wrong. I know you are busy, but I am busy, too. Because I am interested in this issue, so I do not mind to spend time on it. In my study of your case, I had a rough count that there are over 40 KudoZ questions that contain your double and triple entries. That adds up to about 100 entries that are related to our discussion here. You mentioned in your previous message that you have over 2000 KudoZ answers. You are wrong, I hope you did not try to mislead the readers intentionally. The correct number of answers given by you in the Chinese-English languages pairs is 599 entries and you have earned 1,206 KudoZ points.

BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:
Here are the links for your information:

www.proz.com/kudoz/460905
www.proz.com/kudoz/460922
www.proz.com/kudoz/483483

[Edited at 2003-07-22 19:12]


A selective collection of samples. But, I do not know what they are trying to support. Would you like me to list some for you? You can take this as I am asking for your permission now.

Kevin


[Edited at 2003-07-23 02:53]


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
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Hands got caught in a cookie jar? Jul 22, 2003

Betty,

After I read this message of yours, an American saying comes to my mind, that is, let me say it as mildly as I can, "Hands got caught in a cookie jar?"

BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:

Maybe it's high time to let the dirt and filth be exposed to the sun and cleared. I know everybody is suspecting that the translator "abusing" the hide function in the thread post here could be me, now please allow me to make it clear that the "she" translator in that post is me, and that the story there is nowhere remotely near the truth.

[Edited at 2003-07-22 21:09]


I have nothing to hide. [No pun here.] My performance at ProZ.com is an open-book. Everyone can easily find out what I support, criticize, and praise in the Chinese Forum and other sectors. I hope you are able to demonstrate the same.


BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:
Then comes the best moment of the story --乬恀嬻曪憰乭丅I made a typo I felt really uncomfortable with. It should be "packing", and I gave "parking", which is intolerable to me, so I hid it and posted a fresh one. It appeared again, I hid it again and when the text page was dark I wrote a few notes to remind whoever doing that to stop, because I knew whoever doing that should be able to see my notes while others couldn't. But this post appeared three times after I hid it three times, and the last time with an "agree" and a comment I couldn't understand at all, just go to
www.proz.com/kudoz/483483
and you see everything.
[Edited at 2003-07-22 21:09]


This particular case you mentioned here is a situation I believe that you can easily add a correction note to the previous entry. That is how most people normally do. I also posted a note and suggest a discussion in the Chinese Forum on how to use the Hide feature. If I let you hide this entry, then no one would be able to read my note and your nice response under this KudoZ question. If you feel hurt by this, I appologize to you. Actually I am still trying to understand your position here.

BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:

All evidences point to the assumption that our Chinese moderator Kevin Yang has stealthily made my hidden answers reappear many times without any of my knowledge. Kevin, did you or did you not do that? If you did, let me ask you: as a moderator, don't you have better things to do than pestering me with this absurdity? Do you have the basic working ethics?

[Edited at 2003-07-22 21:09]


As I had written about it in my previous message, and I would like to respond to you again because you asked about it again. It is one of the administrative privileges given by ProZ.com to each moderator to make a final decision as to what is qualified to hide and what is not. In your case, I have made decisions that those entries are NOT qualified to hide. You can easily do it the NORMAL way as everyone else is doing. I was surprised my decision to un-hide certain KudoZ entries kept getting reversed and be switched back. I am NOT aware I am supposed to discuss with you before each decision I made. Does that mean if I decide to squash a KudoZ question, I should get the asker's permission first?

BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:

Do you still think you are qualified as a moderator of this forum that attracted so many elite professionals? Don't you feel it's time for you to step down as a moderator and make way for others (I would be willing to recommend a few candidates to the Proz management)?

[Edited at 2003-07-22 21:09]


What a change of the topic of this discussion! Is this because your hands got caught in a cookie jar?

Thank you for your suggestion and request. I can tell it has been in your mind for a while. What a relief to spit it out! For your information, I will be happy to consider it if this is our translators' demands. But I suggest you should post your wonderful suggestion or request in a separated folder in the Chinese Forum to talk about it. Or would you like me to post it for you?

My curiosity is who would be a qualified moderator in your mind. I hope you are not thinking of yourself.

Cheers!

Kevin



[Edited at 2003-07-23 03:16]


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
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Thanks , Chance! Jul 22, 2003

chance wrote:

BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:

Isn't it a good idea to hide my answer if:
1) I am much dissatisfied with my own answer;
2) I have made a mistake or typo which I feel extremely uncomfortable with;
3) My answer is identical to that of the previous answerer;
4) The reference is not well chosen, yet the graders keep giving "agree"s.

IMHO, if I don't make my answers of (1),(2), and (4) invisible, I will blame myself for giving wrong or bad answers which may lead the askers go astray; If I keep answering questions of (3) without hiding them when finding them already perfectly answered by the previous answerer(s), I will get successive emails and keep saying "Thanks!"

Personally speaking, I really enjoy the "hide answer" function in the KudoZ section and the ability to use it. In the meantime, I would like to hear my colleagues' enlightening viewpoints in this regard.

Thank you in advance!


我认为BETTY的论据充足,可行。尽管我自己一直是按KVASIR的做法,只有在重复答题的时候才使用HIDE。


Although you are new to this site, I have been deeply impressed with your excellence in Chinese(your native language), English, and French. Most importantly,I appreciate your high moral standard ,as is reflected in your previous posts.

So, why not be our moderator?!

(I will be away for a short while, see you all shortly!)


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Yongmei Liu  Identity Verified
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You two lovebirds, it's kiss-and-make-up time! Jul 23, 2003

打是亲,骂是爱。

Kidding aside, this is such a trivial matter. Would both of you please kindly end the affair without a verdict being rendered in the moral court?


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
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Cute but does NOT apply to this case. Jul 23, 2003

Yongmei Liu, Mr. wrote:

打是亲,骂是爱。

Kidding aside, this is such a trivial matter. Would both of you please kindly end the affair without a verdict being rendered in the moral court?


Yongmei Liu,

I appreciate your good intention. I know you are trying to be cute. But that is a terrible saying to be used here. Let me quickly close my eyes for a moment and mentally erase that image.

I could try to act as a typical Chinese man, and let issues slip by without mentioning a thing for the purpose of keeping harmony with everyone. I find that the longer I live in America, the less I am able to trade truth with face-saving stuff. If I see something not right, I have this urge to bring it up, otherwise it bothers me by pretending nothing has happened.

I feel really good to participate in such debate. It not just gives me a chance to present the facts and my arguments, but also gives me an opportunity to practice my English writing skill and logical thinking, let along the memorable “legacy” can be displayed in ProZ.com for years to come for the peers to read how “morally-corrupted” Kevin Yang is.

Considering all those benefits, perhaps it is NOT a bad idea for me to suggest to Henry that Moderators should be rotated one year/term per person. In this way, certain individual might not get so frustrated as displayed here and also have a chance to fulfill a dream to be the Moderator.

Cheers!

Kevin


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xxxchance
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Happy to hear this and that is what I want to say ! Jul 23, 2003

Yongmei Liu, Mr. wrote:

打是亲,骂是爱。

Kidding aside, this is such a trivial matter. Would both of you please kindly end the affair without a verdict being rendered in the moral court?


Hi Yongmei,

Happy to hear this and that is what I want to say !

Girl & Boy,

Maybe you do not want to be called "girl or boy",but if both of you stop reacting childishly, I will ask your forgiveness.

Hi Kevin,

我开始怀疑你“穷追不舍”的动机 ?! :)

不过,如果是在法国,这就不是玩笑喽,人们会真的这样认为的。法国人的浪漫想你略有所闻,应该说他们对人情有独到的见解。

如果我的玩笑你不喜欢,我随时可以向你道歉或HIDE以上所写,但条件是请你冷静考虑YONGMEI的建议。

也向你推荐“高山流水”,想必你知道该典故的来源 :http://www.hanaga.com/midi/gsls.mid

祝你心情愉快!

再加几句,我初到PROZ,就发现你办事认真负责,分析问题条条有理,热心助人,......但我不明白你为什么在BETTY的问题上“斤斤计较”?

尽管我说的话不中听,还是希望你能保持愉快心情

[Edited at 2003-07-23 12:10]


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Zhoudan  Identity Verified
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Would like to know what a moderator is allowed to do in the proz.com Jul 23, 2003

I didn't see any inappropriateness in Betty's hiding behavior. I have never tried to use the hiding feature, but if there is such a choice, why shouldn't Betty use it? Is there any restrictions in the times of using this feature?

But I do not feel it right for Kevin to turn back Betty's hiding answers. Kevin seems confident that he has done the right thing, then I suggest we have a discussion about a moderator's privilege, or shall we ask Henry to explain that?


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
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It looks like this discussion can be divided into two or more topics. Jul 23, 2003

Zhoudan,

Thank you for your input! I brought this issue up for an open discussion, because this issue seems no one covered before, and needs to be defined. By reading all the messages posted by the peers, it seems to me this topic can be divided into two parts to discuss: Part 1 is to define what are the acceptable or normal hiding reasons; and Part 2 is to discuss if a moderator can be the final decision-maker in terms of whether or not an answer should remain in display. For now, let's talk about the first thing first.

If you think there is nothing abnormal in such high frequency usage of HIDE feature, well, perhaps also because you cannot see the cases that HIDE feature is used, but I can see them. Think again, if the following hiding patterns are acceptable:

(1) The first posted answer was not correct, after saw other translators' answers, she hides her previous answer and re-post a fresh one; Surprisingly enough, she got quite number of KudoZ points by playing this trick!
(2) There is a typo in the answer, then she hides this one and re-post a fresh one;
(3) The reference info provided needs to revise in the first answer, then she hides it and re-post it with different references provided.

The majority translators only use this HIDE feature from 0 to a few times. The involved party in this discussion caught my attention, because she used this feature over 100 times within over one year membership. My question is why there are so many things to hide? Why the display of the whole translation development process is so hurtful? Abusive?

As for my part, abusing the administrative privilege or not is subject to how many times one does something in relative to the average. So far I used this administrative feature ONLY on this high frequency hider for no more than 5 KudoZ questions, because I found such administrative feature available to moderators only a month ago. No one else experienced it, because they are not using it or using it for hiding repetition entries, or withdrawing from the participation in a KudoZ discussion. Other findings I got were using this feature as a research tool and did some back-traced case studies. I do not think this qualifies abusive usage at all.

Kevin


[Edited at 2003-07-23 15:01]


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