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Thread poster: xxxchance

wherestip  Identity Verified
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Multiples of the system clock Feb 21, 2008

Wenjer Leuschel wrote:

Steve,

No, I am not translating anything like that. I just want to know what if a system clock is composed of an oscillator and the same oscillator with two outputs 90° out of phase to have sine and cosine combined at the same time. The idea is, sine and cosine would cancell each other at 90° and 270° and thus produce a distinct drop at those points, while during other times, the oscillation is either "high" or "low." The precision is a problem, I know.

- Wenjer



Wenjer,

Yes, to produce an exact 90 degree phase shift could be a challenge. In addition, the lack of a multiplier relationship to the reference clock could also be problematic. The rising and falling edges won't exactly be at the 1/4 and 3/4 points of the sine wave. They are actually a bit more to the left. Don't quote me, but I think they are at the 1/8 and 5/8 points of the sine wave.

It's good to have a multiplier relationship between the system clock and the reference clock, especially if any other multiples of the system clock is needed, for example a 2x system clock or a 4x system clock. They then can all be generated using the same PLL.



[Edited at 2008-02-21 02:33]


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Wenjer Leuschel  Identity Verified
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The falling edge Feb 21, 2008

wherestip wrote:

Wenjer,

Yes, to produce an exact 90 degree phase shift could be a challenge. In addition, the lack of a multiplier relationship to the reference clock could also be problematic. The rising and falling edges won't exactly be at the 1/4 and 3/4 points of the sine wave. They are actually a bit more to the left. Don't quote me, but I think they are at the 1/8 and 5/8 points of the sine wave.

It's good to have a multiplier relationship between the system clock and the reference clock, especially if any other multiples of the system clock is needed, for example a 2x system clock or a 4x system clock. They then can all be generated using the same PLL.


Steve,

I can see the reason why we need a muliplier relationship between the system clock and the reference clock. If we want to invert a 2x system clock and divide it then for a 90° shift to the left, we need the relationship.

However, the sine and the cosine waves cross at 1/8 to maintain "high" until they reach 1/4 of the cycle to sum up to zero and falls to "low" immediately after. From the falling edge at 1/4 on, it must stay at "low" even when both waves cross at 5/8 of the cycle. When they reach 3/4, the sum rises to zero and jumps to "high" immediately after. This is easily calculated by definition of sine and cosine. But we know that there isn't such "idealistic" waves in the reality to sum up to be an "idealistic" clock as such. So, there must be some clocking between 3/16 and 5/16 as well as between 11/16 and 13/16 to ensure the reading of "high" and "low."

I know it isn't easy to realize such a system clock, the more difficult the higher frequency is. But, what I wanted to know is if it is possible theoretically. Purely mathematically, the sum of a sine and a cosine do make such distinct falls and rises, doesn't it? Or else, a sine wave is already good enough to serve as a system clock, isn't it?

I appreciate your hint to PLL for possible realization of a cosine wave with the one and the same oscillator. At least it confirms my supposition of the possibility of having a system clock with the sum of sine and cosine. A lot of trouble, I know, but it's possible to achieve such a "discrete timing" as I presumed.

- Wenjer

P.S. Here I got one sine/cosine wave oscillator.
http://www.interq.or.jp/japan/se-inoue/e_ckt20.htm
However, it is in low frequency. I guess, it must be quite difficult in high frequency.


[Edited at 2008-02-21 06:46]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Reference Clock Feb 21, 2008

Wenjer,

Theoretically, yes. You can sum a sine wave and a cosine wave to achieve a bigger amplitude in the waveform, and therefore also achieve a more dramatic rise and fall.

There are also some other considerations in maintaining the synchronicity between the reference clock and the system clock. For example, a microprocessor is typically fed by a lower frequency reference clock generated on the system board. Typically one would want to synchronize the system clock used by the microprocessor to that used by the other system control chips on the board as much as possible. Of course, with today's high speed devices, that sometimes becomes a challenge.



[Edited at 2008-02-21 14:15]


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Wenjer Leuschel  Identity Verified
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Glad to be out Feb 21, 2008

To tell you the truth, Steve, I am glad that I am out of that field since decades. Or else, I would have headaches to cope with the high frequencies and high speeds of nowadays.

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xxxchance
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老孙: Feb 26, 2008

正在赶一份稿件,联想到以前遇到的一个问题。记得你谈过陪团考察的情况,我想问个问题:如果你陪的团里有人提出一些特殊要求,或是有不适当行为,你是怎样处理的?

方便的话,简单讲一下我就会明白。


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ysun  Identity Verified
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能劝阻就尽量劝阻 Feb 26, 2008

chance,

大部分国内来的团组没有提过特殊要求,或有不当行为。他们在完成任务前提下,无非是希望玩得好一点,吃得好一点。这些都是可以理解的,与公司方针也不冲突。我就尽量满足他们的要求。唯有一个代表团,在迈阿密时,晚饭后想去那种声色场所“开眼界”。我以晚上不安全为由加以劝阻。结果那位团长就很客气地让我自己回旅馆休息,他们“自由活动”。事后,我严格执行 “Don’t ask. Don’t tell”的policy。

[Edited at 2008-02-26 16:52]


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xxxchance
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明白,谢谢! Feb 26, 2008

时代不同了,我想现在官方团集体去夜总会应该是没问题的了,如果有更进一步的其它要求,我也是这样答复的

Yueyin Sun wrote:

chance,

大部分国内来的团组没有提过特殊要求,或有不当行为。他们在完成任务前提下,无非是希望玩得好一点,吃得好一点。这些都是可以理解的,与公司方针也不冲突。我就尽量满足他们的要求。唯有一个代表团,在迈阿密时,晚饭后想去那种声色场所“开眼界”。我以晚上不安全为由加以劝阻。结果那位团长就很客气地让我自己回旅馆休息,他们“自由活动”。事后,我严格执行 “Don’t ask. Don’t tell”的policy。

[Edited at 2008-02-26 16:52]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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我思想比较保守 Feb 26, 2008

chance wrote:

时代不同了,我想现在官方团集体去夜总会应该是没问题的了,如果有更进一步的其它要求,我也是这样答复的


有一次在拉斯维加斯看show "Jubilee!"。当 topless dancers 出现时,有一个国内来的代表团不知为什么突然全体退场。大概是其中的女同胞向团长提出了强烈抗议。
http://shop.vegas.com/shows/showtimes2.jsp?show=40

你可以看一下那个 preview。其实这是拉斯维加斯一个很著名、很受欢迎的演出。


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xxxchance
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对,我指的也是这类 Feb 26, 2008

我想应该没问题了吧,其实我也不清楚。

我遇到过聪明的法国人答复:可以考虑让中国使馆安排

Yueyin Sun wrote:

chance wrote:

时代不同了,我想现在官方团集体去夜总会应该是没问题的了,如果有更进一步的其它要求,我也是这样答复的


有一次在拉斯维加斯看show "Jubilee!"。当 topless dancers 出现时,有一个国内来的代表团不知为什么突然全体退场。大概是其中的女同胞向团长提出了强烈抗议。
http://shop.vegas.com/shows/showtimes2.jsp?show=40

你可以看一下那个 preview。其实这是拉斯维加斯一个很著名、很受欢迎的演出。


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ysun  Identity Verified
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我觉得 Jubilee 这种 show 不能算黄色 Feb 26, 2008

我个人认为那是一种美的享受,就像欣赏维纳斯和大卫的塑像一样。不知别人怎么看?
chance wrote:

我想应该没问题了吧,其实我也不清楚。

我遇到过聪明的法国人答复:可以考虑让中国使馆安排


[Edited at 2008-02-27 00:37]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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不老实的人总会栽跟头 Feb 26, 2008

我上面提到的那位在迈阿密想“开眼界”的团长在上海滩也显赫了一时。当时他到底想去哪里,我心里没底,所以借故推托。此人前不久卷入陈良宇事件被双规,目前正在班房里闭门思过。

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jyuan_us  Identity Verified
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英达夸自己老婆的一句话挺逗的 Feb 26, 2008

她漂亮吗?她是梁天的妹妹您说他能漂亮到哪去?也就是一年轻点的梁天戴一头套。

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jyuan_us  Identity Verified
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我朋友她爸为团长的一个团 Feb 26, 2008

Yueyin Sun wrote:

chance,

大部分国内来的团组没有提过特殊要求,或有不当行为。他们在完成任务前提下,无非是希望玩得好一点,吃得好一点。这些都是可以理解的,与公司方针也不冲突。我就尽量满足他们的要求。唯有一个代表团,在迈阿密时,晚饭后想去那种声色场所“开眼界”。我以晚上不安全为由加以劝阻。结果那位团长就很客气地让我自己回旅馆休息,他们“自由活动”。事后,我严格执行 “Don’t ask. Don’t tell”的policy。

[Edited at 2008-02-26 16:52]


因为去夜总会回来都给撤职了,都是天津市某系统骨干国企的董事长和总经理。

我朋友她爸安然无恙,因为组织一查,那天就老头一人没去。挺能严格要求自己的。

距今15,6年了。

[Edited at 2008-02-26 21:31]

[Edited at 2008-02-26 21:32]


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xxxchance
French to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
不知我们这里有没有会打高球的? Feb 26, 2008

希望能探讨几个翻译小问题。

[Edited at 2008-02-27 00:13]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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年代不同了 Feb 27, 2008

jyuan_us wrote:

我朋友她爸为团长的一个团

因为去夜总会回来都给撤职了,都是天津市某系统骨干国企的董事长和总经理。

我朋友她爸安然无恙,因为组织一查,那天就老头一人没去。挺能严格要求自己的。

距今15,6年了。


一般的夜总会应该没什么。他们大概是去了那种色情场所。按理说,出国团组在国外出了什么事,团长也脱不了干系。老头那天是不是犯困想早点睡觉,所以逃过一劫? 现在他们若想去那种场所,就不必出国了。

80年代,天津某大公司有个团去日本。日方替他们付了旅馆费,然后把发票给他们回国报销。于是,他们就用这笔钱每人买了台彩电。回国后风声走漏,团长被判一年徒刑。要是搁现在,这点事算什么?那团长是搞技术出身的副总经理、引进项目现场总代表。外方总代表不知他为何突然消失。新任总代表说他病了。外方总代表就说,那就等他病好了再谈,你不懂,我跟你讲不清!没想到那前任总代表的病假比产假还长得多。:D

80年代在国内工作时,哪怕出国就是为了出席一天的国际会议,也得接受3天外事教育。从宣读文件一直到告诉你喝汤不准发出声。像拉斯维加斯、大西洋赌城、自由女神像这些地方按规定都是不准去的,日本东京新宿的歌舞伎町、靖国神社也是不准去的。如果去莫斯科开一天的会,3天外事教育,去时坐一星期的火车,回来也是一星期的火车。这种会还不如不参加。

东京新宿的歌舞伎町
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/歌舞伎町


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