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Off topic: 茶馆 : 所有"无关紧要的"话题
Thread poster: xxxchance

Vivian Du (PhD)  Identity Verified
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机译校对 Mar 24, 2016

Fargoer wrote:

其实不用等到机器和人译得一样好。一旦 Google translate 的翻译质量达到一定程度,校改机译稿比自己翻译容易,译者就可以利用 Google translate 提高效率。等到译者都习惯于做校改而不做翻译了,翻译这个职业就事实上消亡了。



“机译后编辑校对”确实有可能成为译者的主要业务,不过那也无妨吧,我觉得只要译者们的语言能力和经验尚有用武之处,又能混得生活所需,挽起袖子来为机器做校对也不错。真的到了校对都不用了的时候,我们整个地球村的经济和文化面貌大概会变得认不出来了。


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ysun  Identity Verified
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跑题 Mar 24, 2016


Re: “然而,复杂的问题是跑题。”
看来,无论何时何地,跑题永远都是个复杂的问题。


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Local time: 03:43
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谁是“提高效率”的受益者 Mar 24, 2016

Fargoer wrote:

其实不用等到机器和人译得一样好。一旦 Google translate 的翻译质量达到一定程度,校改机译稿比自己翻译容易,译者就可以利用 Google translate 提高效率。等到译者都习惯于做校改而不做翻译了,翻译这个职业就事实上消亡了。

不过,翻译公司大概不会让这种情况发生。他们派活儿的方式可能早就改变了。没有翻译,都是校改。价钱减半,爱干不干! 呜呜呜 !

关键在于谁是“提高效率”的受益者?如果做机译与校改的是同一人,那倒是无可非议。如果是夫妻档做翻译,那么“你耕田来我织布,我挑水来你浇园”也挺美满。但如果做机译的是别人,做校改的却是你,那你不但不是“提高效率”的受益者,反而是“提高效率”的受害者(因“价钱减半”)!做机译谁不会呀?如果是你翻译社做机译后让我来校改,岂不等于是“你吃肉来我啃骨头”?其实,“没有翻译,都是校改。价钱减半,爱干不干!” 这种情况已经发生了。

类似地,Trados 也可大大提高效率。但谁是“提高效率”的受益者?如果因为你使用 Trados,翻译公司就要收各种各样的 discounts,那么这种“提高效率”对翻译人员又有什么意义?


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Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 02:43
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逃? Mar 25, 2016

Vivian Du (PhD) wrote:

Fargoer wrote:

其实不用等到机器和人译得一样好。一旦 Google translate 的翻译质量达到一定程度,校改机译稿比自己翻译容易,译者就可以利用 Google translate 提高效率。等到译者都习惯于做校改而不做翻译了,翻译这个职业就事实上消亡了。



“机译后编辑校对”确实有可能成为译者的主要业务,不过那也无妨吧,我觉得只要译者们的语言能力和经验尚有用武之处,又能混得生活所需,挽起袖子来为机器做校对也不错。真的到了校对都不用了的时候,我们整个地球村的经济和文化面貌大概会变得认不出来了。


单从生计的角度讲,对单个的译者来说,只要单位时间的收入不减少,做什么都无所谓。

但是,在市场需要不增加的情况下,机器的引进提高了单位时间的产出,全社会需要翻译劳动时间总量就会减少。活儿越来越难找,你降不降价?

再说,校改机译稿和自己翻译稿件能一样吗?我觉得,做翻译如果没有先读的快乐和创造的满足,那还真不如干点流汗的活儿,至少不会得抑郁症。 等不到全职为机器改稿的那一天,我可能早就去餐馆洗盘子了。这几天晚上睡不着,就琢磨这事儿来着。 To be ( a translator ) or not to be, that is a question.

[修改时间: 2016-03-25 00:18 GMT]


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Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 02:43
English to Chinese
福兮祸兮 Mar 25, 2016

ysun wrote:

关键在于谁是“提高效率”的受益者?


科技进步是怎么来的?是钱堆出来的。谁是技术的主宰?是资本。 AlphaGo 对李世石的胜利,可能看作商业巨头对个人棋士的碾压。 无可逃遁。


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Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 02:43
English to Chinese
人工种族主义 Mar 25, 2016

微软开发的网上聊天机器人 Tay Tweets ,上线十六个小时就被网友教坏了。

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/24/tay-microsofts-ai-chatbot-gets-a-crash-course-in-racism-from-twitter

看来,对机器人的教育问题已经摆在面前了。

[修改时间: 2016-03-25 04:11 GMT]


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Vivian Du (PhD)  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 10:43
Member (2015)
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+ ...
形而上学 Mar 25, 2016

Fargoer wrote:

但是,在市场需要不增加的情况下,机器的引进提高了单位时间的产出,全社会需要翻译劳动时间总量就会减少。活儿越来越难找,你降不降价?

再说,校改机译稿和自己翻译稿件能一样吗?我觉得,做翻译如果没有先读的快乐和创造的满足,那还真不如干点流汗的活儿,至少不会得抑郁症。 等不到全职为机器改稿的那一天,我可能早就去餐馆洗盘子了。这几天晚上睡不着,就琢磨这事儿来着。 To be ( a translator ) or not to be, that is a question.


Fargoer, 要多放宽心啊,to be or not to be is just a question, 别为它失眠。

老孙说的机器翻译的受益人问题和 fargoer的担心降价问题其实是关于翻译市场的走向问题。在市场需求不增加的情况下,机器翻译的引入无疑会倾向于降价。但是纵观整个经济、科技和信息交流界的发展趋势,翻译市场的需求应该是大有增加的。语言类服务的价格跟其他商品的价格一样,受供求关系的调节。如果真到了这个行业不足以维持一般性生活水平的时代,自然会有大量译者转化到其他行业,从而使价格又恢复稳定。机器翻译,跟其他类的技术进步一样,其直接作用是提高生产力,并透过一些价值分配体系提供人的生活水平。译者能不能成为机器翻译的受益人一是要看市场需求,二是要看整个行业的发展是否健康。希望有像工会这样的组织产生,不时也搞搞罢译,:D,我大概在做白日梦了, zzzzzzzz


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Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 02:43
English to Chinese
您真乐观 Mar 26, 2016

Vivian Du (PhD) wrote:
Fargoer, 要多放宽心啊,to be or not to be is just a question, 别为它失眠。



谢谢您的安慰!

您对形而上学有研究? 看得挺通达的。


[修改时间: 2016-03-26 00:48 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:43
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活一天就乐一天 Mar 26, 2016

Fargoer wrote:

科技进步是怎么来的?是钱堆出来的。谁是技术的主宰?是资本。 AlphaGo 对李世石的胜利,可能看作商业巨头对个人棋士的碾压。 无可逃遁。

碾压个人棋士也许比较容易,但碾压翻译人员却没那么容易。对比以下中文原文及英译文,就可知 Google Translate 的中英翻译水平还差得很远。

http://www.google.com/patents/CN204111926U?cl=zh

http://www.google.com/patents/CN204111926U?cl=en

http://www.proz.com/post/2532421#2532421


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Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 02:43
English to Chinese
今晚早睡 Mar 26, 2016

ysun wrote:

Fargoer wrote:

科技进步是怎么来的?是钱堆出来的。谁是技术的主宰?是资本。 AlphaGo 对李世石的胜利,可能看作商业巨头对个人棋士的碾压。 无可逃遁。

碾压个人棋士也许比较容易,但碾压翻译人员却没那么容易。对比以下中文原文及英译文,就可知 Google Translate 的中英翻译水平还差得很远。

http://www.google.com/patents/CN204111926U?cl=zh

http://www.google.com/patents/CN204111926U?cl=en

http://www.proz.com/post/2532421#2532421


是得乐观,哈。不然也没有别的办法不是。

其实,李世石还不算太惨。他还有还手的机会。听说他反过来向

AlphaGo 挑战了呢!换了我们呢? ……

感觉自己是温水里的蛙……

还是睡觉去啦 ……


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ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:43
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+ ...
AlphaGo 的启示 Mar 26, 2016

Fargoer wrote:

是得乐观,哈。不然也没有别的办法不是。

其实,李世石还不算太惨。他还有还手的机会。听说他反过来向

AlphaGo 挑战了呢!换了我们呢? ……

感觉自己是温水里的蛙……

还是睡觉去啦 ……

AlphaGo 给我们的启示就是不要只会耍黑的白的,还得学一手复杂点的玩艺儿。如果那样,面对 AlphaGo 的碾压,就不至于等死。实在不行,也不是非干翻译这行。别的办法不是没有。如您所说,也许“去餐馆洗盘子”也是个不错的选择!


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Vivian Du (PhD)  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 10:43
Member (2015)
English to Chinese
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乐观 Mar 26, 2016

fargoer wrote:
您真乐观



呵呵,我大概是“无知者无畏”的乐观吧。不过,“愁也一天,乐也一天”,像孙先生说得那样,“活一天就乐一天” 就挺好。

ysun wrote:
碾压个人棋士也许比较容易,但碾压翻译人员却没那么容易。对比以下中文原文及英译文,就可知 Google Translate 的中英翻译水平还差得很远。


是的,机器翻译跟人工翻译还差得远呢。希望将来也不要被机器压榨到。:)


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Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 02:43
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那还得…… Mar 26, 2016

ysun wrote:

如您所说,也许“去餐馆洗盘子”也是个不错的选择!


在洗盘子机器人没有发明之前!


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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:43
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All this talk about mundane jobs Mar 26, 2016

... that potentially might be more profitable than doing translation reminds me of this CNN story I read not too long ago.



http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/24/news/economy/trash-workers-high-pay/

The $100,000 job: Garbage workers
by Patrick Gillespie @CNNMoney
February 25, 2016: 8:29 AM ET



And yet, they love their job. Part of the reason is they get paid well for their hard work.
"Your trash is my money," Molina, 32, says with a baby-faced grin.

Molina made $112,000 last year as a garbage truck driver and Sankar made $100,000 as a helper, riding on the back of the truck. Their wages have grown in eight of the last nine years, according to their bosses, brothers David and Jerry Antonacci, owners of Crown Container, a waste management company.

Molina dropped out of high school in the 10th grade and he's worked at Crown for 10 years. He says his starting salary was about $80,000. Sankar too dropped out of school before migrating to the U.S. from Guyana 20 years ago.

Not everyone makes six figures, but most trash workers are doing better than high school dropouts and even graduates.

Nationwide, the annual salary for a garbage truck driver is $40,000, according to the Labor Department. Across all professions, high school dropouts earn about $24,000, while high school graduates make $30,000 annually, according to the U.S. Education Department.

Molina and Sankar are aware that they outearn many people with a college degree.

Guys who go to college might not make the kind of money "(I make) on the back of a garbage truck, picking up trash," says Sankar.

Not only do they earn a good salary, their wages are growing faster than the average too. Nationwide, wages for trash workers have grown 18%, which is a lot faster than the 14% average for all workers since the recession ended in June 2009.




[Edited at 2016-03-26 20:08 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Local time: 03:43
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绝非盲目乐观 Mar 26, 2016

Vivian Du (PhD) wrote:

fargoer wrote:
您真乐观



呵呵,我大概是“无知者无畏”的乐观吧。不过,“愁也一天,乐也一天”,像孙先生说得那样,“活一天就乐一天” 就挺好。

ysun wrote:
碾压个人棋士也许比较容易,但碾压翻译人员却没那么容易。对比以下中文原文及英译文,就可知 Google Translate 的中英翻译水平还差得很远。


是的,机器翻译跟人工翻译还差得远呢。希望将来也不要被机器压榨到。:)

是啊,没有理由不乐观。别说是 AlphaGo,即使是 OmegaGo 来了,也没什么可怕的!


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