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Off topic: 茶馆 : 所有"无关紧要的"话题
Thread poster: xxxchance

wherestip  Identity Verified
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二次大战后的重建 Apr 29, 2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/marshallplan/



[Edited at 2008-04-29 00:22]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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美国人民 Apr 29, 2008

chance,

I agree with Yueyin. 不能把美国人民想得那么没正义感. September 11 was still on most people's mind; and many people thought Saddam Hussein had something to do with it. It would have helped if Saddam wasn't so evasive about his WMD programs. Like you said, "transparency" in some situations could be very important.

Now it's all clear that there were no weapons of mass destruction. But like I said, it's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_popular_opinion_of_invasion_of_Iraq

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_government_position_on_invasion_of_Iraq



[Edited at 2008-04-29 00:53]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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诺曼第 Apr 29, 2008

Steve,

我完全同意你的上述观点。我也想到了诺曼第。以前曾有人在此说反对一切战争,那时,我就提过美国人民在反法西斯战争中的贡献。二战时,除了珍珠港以外,美国国土并没有遭到攻击。如果不是出于国际主义精神,美国人民完全可以反对派兵参战,而只卖军火、物资。

如果911事件发生在巴黎,法国民众对伊拉克战争的观点恐怕又会大不相同。

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/诺曼底战役


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xxxchance
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不是说法国人民比美国人民伟大 Apr 29, 2008

而是说由于911,美国民众已经很愤慨,他们当时的心情完全可以理解。作为国家元首,应该有一定的前瞻力,不应该再轻易发动战争,而布什政府却还要说谎,借机发动战争。

这场战争的后果大家都看得很清楚了,法国和其它国家都应该从中吸取教训。

[Edited at 2008-04-29 09:57]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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谎言 Apr 29, 2008

我认为也不能那么一棒子打死. 当时连反对出兵的国家都没想到 WMD 并不存在. 这和 faulty intelligence 很有关系. Saddam Hussein 与weapons inspectors 又不合作.

而且有很多东西是意识形态上造成的. Look up the wikipedia page for "Axis of Evil" and you'll understand what I mean.


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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看看这个 Apr 29, 2008

很长, 有时间可以读读. 不是说完全可以听信, 但我认为很多事情都没有那么简单. 并不是叫声 口号 就完事的.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060501faessay85301/kevin-woods-james-lacey-williamson-murray/saddam-s-delusions-the-view-from-the-inside.html



Judging from his private statements, the single most important element in Saddam's strategic calculus was his faith that France and Russia would prevent an invasion by the United States. According to Aziz, Saddam's confidence was firmly rooted in his belief in the nexus between the economic interests of France and Russia and his own strategic goals: "France and Russia each secured millions of dollars worth of trade and service contracts in Iraq, with the implied understanding that their political posture with regard to sanctions on Iraq would be pro-Iraqi. In addition, the French wanted sanctions lifted to safeguard their trade and service contracts in Iraq. Moreover, they wanted to prove their importance in the world as members of the Security Council -- that they could use their veto to show they still had power."

Ibrahim Ahmad Abd al-Sattar, the Iraqi army and armed forces chief of staff, claimed that Saddam believed that even if his international supporters failed him and the United States did launch a ground invasion, Washington would rapidly bow to international pressure to halt the war. According to his personal interpreter, Saddam also thought his "superior" forces would put up "a heroic resistance and . . . inflict such enormous losses on the Americans that they would stop their advance." Saddam remained convinced that, in his own words, "Iraq will not, in any way, be like Afghanistan. We will not let the war become a picnic for the American or the British soldiers. No way!"





When it came to weapons of mass destruction (WMD), Saddam attempted to convince one audience that they were gone while simultaneously convincing another that Iraq still had them. Coming clean about WMD and using full compliance with inspections to escape from sanctions would have been his best course of action for the long run. Saddam, however, found it impossible to abandon the illusion of having WMD, especially since it played so well in the Arab world.





[Edited at 2008-04-29 13:36]


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xxxchance
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我不知道你的资料是从哪里来的 Apr 29, 2008

英美是主战的,所以英美主流媒体至少当时不太可能提供更客观的信息。

我清楚记得当时我们这里的媒体就说没有任何WMD证据,大概是由于法国与他们历史上有过合作,所以在这方面了解一些情况?我记得还有其它资料也说到没有WMD证据,但是布什政府一意孤行,也正是在这方面他受到国际舆论更多谴责。

wherestip wrote:

我认为也不能那么一棒子打死. 当时连反对出兵的国家都没想到 WMD 并不存在. 这和 faulty intelligence 很有关系. Saddam Hussein 与weapons inspectors 又不合作.

而且有很多东西是意识形态上造成的. Look up the wikipedia page for "Axis of Evil" and you'll understand what I mean.



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ysun  Identity Verified
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你的意思是说 Apr 29, 2008

欧美主流媒体不公正、不客观、丧失职业道德,迎合政府政策需要而进行不客观的新闻报导?

另外,由于法国与萨达姆政权历史上在制造大规模毁灭性武器(WMD)方面有过合作,所以在这方面了解一些情况?
chance wrote:

英美是主战的,所以英美主流媒体至少当时不太可能提供更客观的信息。

我清楚记得当时我们这里的媒体就说没有任何WMD证据,大概是由于法国与他们历史上有过合作,所以在这方面了解一些情况?我记得还有其它资料也说到没有WMD证据,但是布什政府一意孤行,也正是在这方面他受到国际舆论更多谴责。


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xxxchance
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我暂无时间查找其它资料 Apr 29, 2008

如果愿意可以用 Google 翻译看看这个链接内容,和英文同一主题资料是有区别的:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerre_en_Irak

尤其是其中这几段:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerre_en_Irak#La_d.C3.A9termination_des_.C3.89tats-Unis

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerre_en_Irak#Conflit_diplomatique_.C3.A0_l.27ONU

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerre_en_Irak#Pol.C3.A9mique_.C3.A0_propos_des_armes_de_destruction_massive


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xxxchance
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我的意思是说:我们这里的媒体当时就说没有证据 Apr 29, 2008

所以法国大众才坚决反对这场战争。

如果你真想了解更多,可以看看我刚才给的链接,你自己也可以把它们和Wiki有关英文材料比较,就知道我说的是什么了。

[Edited at 2008-04-29 14:10]


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xxxchance
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我想有一点是可以预料的 Apr 29, 2008

如果人们不能真正认识这场战争的错误根源,或是不情愿认识到问题的根本,那就很难避免将来的类似战争。

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wherestip  Identity Verified
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联合国安理会 Apr 29, 2008

chance,

To answer your question about where I got my info about France's belief pre-war regarding the status of Saddam Hussein's stockpile of WMD, see the following. It's from the link you provided about the Iraq War.



Chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix remarked in January 2003 that "Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance – not even today – of the disarmament, which was demanded of it and which it needs to carry out to win the confidence of the world and to live in peace."[93] Among other things he noted that 1,000 tons of chemical agent were unaccounted for, information on Iraq's VX nerve agent program was missing, and that "no convincing evidence" was presented for the destruction of 8,500 liters of anthrax that had been declared.[93] Secretary of State Collin Powell's presentation to the U.N. on February 3, 2003 was designed to influence U.N. members that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. After his presentation 71% of those who watched his presentation thought his case was persuasive, while 56% believed he had presented enough hard evidence to prove Iraq had weapons of mass destruction[citation needed]. France even believed that Saddam had stockpiles of anthrax and botulism toxin, and the ability to produce VX.[94] But in March, Blix said no evidence of WMDs had been found, and progress had been made in inspections.[45]

In early 2003, the U.S., UK, and Spain proposed the so-called "eighteenth resolution" to give Iraq a deadline for compliance with previous resolutions enforced by the threat of military action. This proposed resolution was subsequently withdrawn due to lack of support on the U.N. Security Council. In particular, NATO members France, Germany and Canada together with Russia, were opposed to military intervention in Iraq due to the high level of risk to the international community's security and defended disarmament through diplomacy.[95][96]



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xxxchance
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我在法文版里没查到你加粗的那句话? Apr 29, 2008

wherestip wrote:

chance,

To answer your question about where I got my info about France's belief pre-war regarding the status of Saddam Hussein's stockpile of WMD, see the following. It's from the link you provided about the Iraq War.



Chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix remarked in January 2003 that "Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance – not even today – of the disarmament, which was demanded of it and which it needs to carry out to win the confidence of the world and to live in peace."[93] Among other things he noted that 1,000 tons of chemical agent were unaccounted for, information on Iraq's VX nerve agent program was missing, and that "no convincing evidence" was presented for the destruction of 8,500 liters of anthrax that had been declared.[93] Secretary of State Collin Powell's presentation to the U.N. on February 3, 2003 was designed to influence U.N. members that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. After his presentation 71% of those who watched his presentation thought his case was persuasive, while 56% believed he had presented enough hard evidence to prove Iraq had weapons of mass destruction[citation needed]. France even believed that Saddam had stockpiles of anthrax and botulism toxin, and the ability to produce VX.[94] But in March, Blix said no evidence of WMDs had been found, and progress had been made in inspections.[45]

In early 2003, the U.S., UK, and Spain proposed the so-called "eighteenth resolution" to give Iraq a deadline for compliance with previous resolutions enforced by the threat of military action. This proposed resolution was subsequently withdrawn due to lack of support on the U.N. Security Council. In particular, NATO members France, Germany and Canada together with Russia, were opposed to military intervention in Iraq due to the high level of risk to the international community's security and defended disarmament through diplomacy.[95][96]





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wherestip  Identity Verified
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perspective Apr 29, 2008

I'm not exactly sure why we're discussing this topic. But my take is, we need to look at things with a historic perspective.

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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Let's stop talking about this issue Apr 29, 2008

弄不好 又吵得天翻地覆

[Edited at 2008-04-29 15:07]


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