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Off topic: 茶馆 : 所有"无关紧要的"话题
Thread poster: xxxchance
ysun  Identity Verified
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语法分析 Mar 18, 2010

不错,我没否认,regret 后面可以接名词短语作宾语。在我举的例子中,"regret the negligence” makes sense. 但是,如果 "I’d not regret a thousand times” 中 a thousand times 不是修饰regret,这句话能 makes sense 吗?

"would not regret dying ”肯定没错。这是虚拟语气,表示与目前事实相反的事情。张璐用的也是虚拟语气,这一点很对。如果一个人真的死了,他或她就不会说话了。这里再举两个"regret dying ”的例子:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A25904018

What are your views of England and life over here? Would you regret dying here?

http://www.answerbag.co.uk/q_view/832863

It would be preferential not to, but, I would not regret dying alone, as long as I die in a room with a big window and a lovely view, nice books, and knowing that I was genuinely loved and made some difference to somebody.


你上面举的例子 "The cat may have nine lives, but it also has nine times to die.” 并不能说明问题,因为我们讨论的动词是regret,而不是have。这是两码事。再说,"to die"是动词不定式作"nine times"的定语,而不是你说的那个意思。

顺便说一句,某些人根据张璐翻译的这几句文言文把她捧上了天,而另一些人则说她的英语不怎么样。这两种做法都是片面的。判断一名翻译的水平是根据她或他的整体水平,而不是根据几句古文的翻译。毕竟张璐是温总理及其他领导人的翻译,而不是古人的翻译。即使张璐当时卡壳了,也仍然不失为一名杰出的翻译。
nigerose wrote:

ysun wrote:


http://newspapers.rawson.lib.mi.us/chronicle/ccc1906%20(E)/issues/07-06-1906_6.pdf
You go away by yourself and shed a few scalding tears and regret a thousand times the negligence to the dear one.



从你给出的这个“西方人”的例子,可以看出regret是可以接名词短语的,即:
“regret a thousand times the negligence to the dear one”
这里 a thousand times的确修饰regret,但“the negligence to the dear one”名词短语做regret的宾语。

在张璐的翻译“I’d not regret a thousand times to die”中,“a thousand times to die”是名词短语做regret的宾语。a thousand times不是修饰regret的。

为什么要用to die而不是dying,因为不定式短语有表示将来的意思,分词有表示完成的意思。所以在这里“regret dying ”是不对的,因为人还没有死。

英语语法:regret doing/to do
本篇文章来源于《点睛考试网》[www.kswchina.com] ;原文链接地址:http://xueli.kswchina.com/zk/wy/yf/512127.html

当然,正如一些网友所说,张璐的那句翻译改成“I'd not regret to die a thousand times”更好。这里是用“regret +不定式”的句型,语义重点在die。如果是按张璐“I’d not regret a thousand times to die”的翻译,则只能语法分析为“regret+名词短语”的句型,语义重点在a thousand times。

[修改时间: 2010-03-18 01:24 GMT]


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nigerose  Identity Verified
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语法分析 Mar 18, 2010

ysun wrote:

不错,我没否认,regret 后面可以接名词短语作宾语。在我举的例子中,"regret the negligence” makes sense. 但是,如果 "I’d not regret a thousand times” 中 a thousand times 不是修饰regret,这句话能 makes sense 吗?

"would not regret dying ”肯定没错。这是虚拟语气,表示与目前事实相反的事情。张璐用的也是虚拟语气,这一点很对。如果一个人真的死了,他或她就不会说话了。这里再举两个"regret dying ”的例子:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A25904018

What are your views of England and life over here? Would you regret dying here?

http://www.answerbag.co.uk/q_view/832863

It would be preferential not to, but, I would not regret dying alone, as long as I die in a room with a big window and a lovely view, nice books, and knowing that I was genuinely loved and made some difference to somebody.





“would not regret dying”应该可以(我前面说“不对”有误),但dying在这里应该不是分词而是动名词。分词有表示完成的意思,但人还没有死,所以dying是动名词,相当于名词,也就是说“regret dying”是“regret +名词”的结构。

为什么就不能把张璐的“I’d not regret a thousand times to die”理解为“regret + 名词短语 (a thousand times to die)”呢,不要以为a thousand times就是修饰regret的。

我认为原文“虽九死其犹未悔”的语义重点在“九”(而不是“死”)和“悔”,张璐的翻译可能也考虑到了这一点,所以用了名词短语a thousand times to die,用to die 修饰a thousand times。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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一点意见 Mar 18, 2010

ysun wrote:


顺便说一句,某些人根据张璐翻译的这几句文言文把她捧上了天,而另一些人则说她的英语不怎么样。这两种做法都是片面的。判断一名翻译的水平是根据她或他的整体水平,而不是根据几句古文的翻译。毕竟张璐是温总理及其他领导人的翻译,而不是古人的翻译。即使张璐当时卡壳了,也仍然不失为一名杰出的翻译。



Yueyin 说得很好. 我也这样认为.

同时我也同意 Yueyin 对这句话语法上的分析 -- 现代英语语法是不会将 a thousand times 放在 to die 前面的. 若是中世纪的 Shakespearean English 或诗歌中为了押韵还马马虎虎说得过去.

For example, in today's English, the grammar of the following sentence would be considered correct ...
"I'd guarantee to finish the job in one day."

It would be very rare to hear someone phrase the same sentence this way though ...
"I'd guarantee in one day to finish the job", or
"I'd guarantee one day to finish the job"


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nigerose  Identity Verified
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的确 Mar 19, 2010

的确,张璐的翻译只能在语法上勉强自圆其说,但实际上没有其他人这么用。不知道高水平的她为什么会犯这个“低级”错误,可能想得太复杂了,比如如我所说的“语义重点”,结果反而弄巧成拙。
这也说明十全十美的翻译是没有的。



[修改时间: 2010-03-19 00:59 GMT]


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VictorLi
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高人 Mar 19, 2010

都是高人哈。:)

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ysun  Identity Verified
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The Difference in Meaning Between Regret to Do Something and Regret Doing Something Mar 19, 2010

此谈论所有“无关紧要的”话题的“茶馆”开张六年多,似乎到现在才涉及翻译正题,所以再顶一下。
http://www.xcers.com/accent/accent29.php

Teacher: Welcome to daily tips on learning English. Today's tip is on the difference in meaning between regret to do something and regret doing something.

Teacher: Let's take an example. What's the difference between I regret to tell you that your father died and I regret telling you that your father died.

Teacher: Well, I regret to tell, I regret to say are used to inform someone of some bad news in a polite way.

Teacher: Before you tell someone bad news, it's polite to warn the person that he's about to get some bad news by telling him you feel sorry about it. Regret too must be followed by a verb which means say, for example, tell, inform, announce, report, verbs that do not have this meaning can not be used.

Teacher: On the other hand, regret doing something means you wish you had not done something.

Teacher: So I regret telling you that your father died means you wish you had not told someone his father died. Maybe because after hearing the bad news, he tried to kill himself or maybe because it was a mistake that his father had not actually died.

Teacher: Let's look another example. I regret to inform you that the basketball game has been canceled. In this sentence, I am telling someone some bad news. The bad news is that there will be no basketball game tonight.

Teacher: Here is another example. I regret eating so much. This sentence means that I ate too much in the past and now I wish I had not eaten so much. So if you have to tell someone bad news, say I regret to tell you. But if you wish you had not done something, say I regret doing it. And if you are glad that you did something, say I don't regret doing it.

Teacher: This has been today's daily tip on learning English. Tune in tomorrow for another tip.


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ysun  Identity Verified
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补充两点 Mar 19, 2010

根据上面所说,《点睛考试网》的那篇中考辅导文章是错误的,是误人子弟的。原文链接地址:
英语语法:regret doing/to do
http://xueli.kswchina.com/zk/wy/yf/512127.html

不言而喻,无论是张璐的 "I’d not regret a thousand times to die” ,还是某些网友主张的 "I'd not regret to die a thousand times”,都是错误的。

再说,"a thousand times” 这个短语是状语而不是宾语。它放在 regret 之后就是修饰 regret。如果想修饰 to die 或 dying,就应该放在 to die 或 dying 之后。因此,可以接受的译法应该包括但不限于:"I'd not regret dying a thousand times”。
nigerose wrote:

在张璐的翻译“I’d not regret a thousand times to die”中,“a thousand times to die”是名词短语做regret的宾语。a thousand times不是修饰regret的。

为什么要用to die而不是dying,因为不定式短语有表示将来的意思,分词有表示完成的意思。所以在这里“regret dying ”是不对的,因为人还没有死。

英语语法:regret doing/to do
本篇文章来源于《点睛考试网》[www.kswchina.com] ;原文链接地址:http://xueli.kswchina.com/zk/wy/yf/512127.html

当然,正如一些网友所说,张璐的那句翻译改成“I'd not regret to die a thousand times”更好。这里是用“regret +不定式”的句型,语义重点在die。
如果是按张璐“I’d not regret a thousand times to die”的翻译,则只能语法分析为“regret+名词短语”的句型,语义重点在a thousand times。我认为原文“虽九死其犹未悔”的语义重点在“九”(而不是“死”)和“悔”,张璐的翻译可能也考虑到了这一点。

[修改时间: 2010-03-18 02:05 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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金无足赤 Mar 19, 2010

如果谁有兴趣,而且对温总理说话的速度有足够的耐心,不妨看看这段视频:
《温总理记者招待会全程口译视频及译文赏析》
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4fe719c00100hejg.html

我看了之后觉得张璐的水平确实很高。不过,在中国的外交口包括驻外使领馆中,像张璐这样高水平的翻译少说也有几十名、几百名。不知为什么媒体这次要炒得如此厉害。这对张璐而言并非是一件好事。对外交口正在默默无闻努力工作的众多其他翻译似乎也不大公平。如果真的那么欣赏翻译人员,不如先呼吁一下把广大翻译的待遇提高些。

金无足赤,人无完人,水平高并不等于不出错。例如,“行百里者半九十”这句常见的成语她也翻错了。当然,连中国传媒大学外国语学院的专家在点评这段翻译时也点评错了,更何况一名年轻的翻译呢。无论如何,张璐仍然是一名杰出的翻译,前途无量!

行百里者半九十
http://www.zdic.net/cy/ch/ZdicE8ZdicA1Zdic8C24717.htm


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xxxwonita
China
Local time: 13:37
已经到顶了 Mar 19, 2010

ysun wrote:

无论如何,张璐仍然是一名杰出的翻译,前途无量!

从事业的角度来讲,能给国家领导作口译,这似乎是一个翻译所能达到的最高境界。欧洲国家翻译的最高境界大概是欧盟的同声传译。张璐年薪50万,和欧盟同声传译的起薪差不多。


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xxxwonita
China
Local time: 13:37
不是想得太多,而是根本没时间想 Mar 19, 2010

nigerose wrote:

的确,张璐的翻译只能在语法上勉强自圆其说,但实际上没有其他人这么用。不知道高水平的她为什么会犯这个“低级”错误,可能想得太复杂了,比如如我所说的“语义重点”,结果反而弄巧成拙。
这也说明十全十美的翻译是没有的。


口译根本没有时间考虑语法,现场翻译只能考虑组织好温总理讲话的纲领和要点,用中文表达出来。至于说到语法上的细节,那全靠平时的练习积累,临场发挥跟着语感走了。


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ysun  Identity Verified
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虽九死其犹未悔 Mar 19, 2010

如果我没听错的话,张璐对于“虽九死其犹未悔”的翻译不是 "I’d not regret a thousand times to die",而是 "I'd not regret a thousand deaths to die”。这种译法无瑕可谪,而且与著名翻译家杨宪益、戴乃迭夫妇的翻译完全一致。那么,"I’d not regret a thousand times to die" 是谁编出来的?

请看大翻译家是如何翻译这句话的(I regret to say that 我认为许渊冲先生的翻译相形见绌):

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5162e5a50100972g.html

亦余心之所善兮,虽九死其犹未悔

译文1
But since my heart did love such purity,
I'd not regret a thousand deaths to die.
(杨宪益、戴乃迭译)

译文2
My heart tells me it’s good and meet, oh!
I won’t regret to die nine times.
(许渊冲译)

夫妻翻译家:杨宪益和戴乃迭
http://www.tac-online.org.cn/ch/tran/2009-11/16/content_3245374.htm

[专访]译界狂才许渊冲:我的译文胜傅雷
http://news.xinhuanet.com/book/2005-08/03/content_3302565.htm


[Edited at 2010-03-19 21:25 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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华山之顶 Mar 19, 2010

Bin Tiede wrote:

已经到顶了
ysun wrote:

无论如何,张璐仍然是一名杰出的翻译,前途无量!

从事业的角度来讲,能给国家领导作口译,这似乎是一个翻译所能达到的最高境界。

还没到顶吧。杨洁篪就是从翻译做起的。不少驻外大使也是翻译出身。李肇星是否当过翻译,不知道;只知道给他当翻译时必须有仙才灵。:D

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/杨洁篪


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nigerose  Identity Verified
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句子结构类似 Mar 20, 2010

ysun wrote:

如果我没听错的话,张璐对于“虽九死其犹未悔”的翻译不是 "I’d not regret a thousand times to die",而是 "I'd not regret a thousand deaths to die”。这种译法无瑕可谪,而且与著名翻译家杨宪益、戴乃迭夫妇的翻译完全一致。那么,"I’d not regret a thousand times to die" 是谁编出来的?

请看大翻译家是如何翻译这句话的(I regret to say that 我认为许渊冲先生的翻译相形见绌):

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5162e5a50100972g.html

亦余心之所善兮,虽九死其犹未悔

译文1
But since my heart did love such purity,
I'd not regret a thousand deaths to die.
(杨宪益、戴乃迭译)



将杨宪益、戴乃迭的翻译“I'd not regret a thousand deaths to die”与“I’d not regret a thousand times to die”进行比较,发现句子结构是类似的。杨、戴的翻译也是regret接名词短语宾语,to die也是不定式做后置定语。因此,a thousand times也可以理解为regret的宾语,是regret的对象。只是a thousand times也容易误解为状语修饰regret,所以“I’d not regret a thousand times to die”容易引起歧义。


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nigerose  Identity Verified
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类似 Mar 20, 2010

ysun wrote:

此谈论所有“无关紧要的”话题的“茶馆”开张六年多,似乎到现在才涉及翻译正题,所以再顶一下。
http://www.xcers.com/accent/accent29.php

Teacher: Welcome to daily tips on learning English. Today's tip is on the difference in meaning between regret to do something and regret doing something.

Teacher: Let's take an example. What's the difference between I regret to tell you that your father died and I regret telling you that your father died.

Teacher: Well, I regret to tell, I regret to say are used to inform someone of some bad news in a polite way.

Teacher: Before you tell someone bad news, it's polite to warn the person that he's about to get some bad news by telling him you feel sorry about it. Regret too must be followed by a verb which means say, for example, tell, inform, announce, report, verbs that do not have this meaning can not be used.

Teacher: On the other hand, regret doing something means you wish you had not done something.

Teacher: So I regret telling you that your father died means you wish you had not told someone his father died. Maybe because after hearing the bad news, he tried to kill himself or maybe because it was a mistake that his father had not actually died.

Teacher: Let's look another example. I regret to inform you that the basketball game has been canceled. In this sentence, I am telling someone some bad news. The bad news is that there will be no basketball game tonight.

Teacher: Here is another example. I regret eating so much. This sentence means that I ate too much in the past and now I wish I had not eaten so much. So if you have to tell someone bad news, say I regret to tell you. But if you wish you had not done something, say I regret doing it. And if you are glad that you did something, say I don't regret doing it.

Teacher: This has been today's daily tip on learning English. Tune in tomorrow for another tip.


这个teacher的观点与《点睛考试网》的那篇中考辅导文章的观点是类似的。
另外:Grammar Q & A Newsgroup
“As you know. "regret" + the gerund refers to a time in the past. The meaning of the verb "regret" ensures that, when used with the gerund, the situation referred to is in the past"

http://thegrammarexchange.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/340600179/m/8136069592

http://www.englishpage.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5563.html

[修改时间: 2010-03-20 02:24 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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句子结构并不类似 Mar 20, 2010

nigerose wrote:

将杨宪益、戴乃迭的翻译“I'd not regret a thousand deaths to die”与“I’d not regret a thousand times to die”进行比较,发现句子结构是类似的。杨、戴的翻译也是regret接名词短语宾语,to die也是不定式做后置定语。因此,a thousand times也可以理解为regret的宾语,是regret的对象。只是a thousand times也容易误解为状语修饰regret,所以“I’d not regret a thousand times to die”容易引起歧义。


两句话的句子结构并不类似。"a thousand times” 正是修饰动词的状语,而不是 regret 的宾语。把它理解为 regret 的宾语 makes no sense。"to die” 也不是修饰 "a thousand times”。而杨、戴伉俪的译法 "I'd not regret a thousand deaths to die” 中,"a thousand deaths to die” 确是 regret 的宾语。这种译法,是源自 "die a death” 的习惯用法,确实地道。例如:
She lived a long happy life and died a natural death.
她度过了漫长而快乐的一生,最后寿终正寝。

现在我估计,"I’d not regret a thousand times to die” 是某位(些)点评专家听错的结果,而张璐是被冤枉的。


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