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Off topic: 茶馆 : 所有"无关紧要的"话题
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ysun  Identity Verified
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差之毫厘,谬以千里 Mar 20, 2010

nigerose wrote:

这个teacher的观点与《点睛考试网》的那篇中考辅导文章的观点是类似的。
另外:Grammar Q & A Newsgroup
“As you know. "regret" + the gerund refers to a time in the past. The meaning of the verb "regret" ensures that, when used with the gerund, the situation referred to is in the past"

http://thegrammarexchange.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/340600179/m/8136069592

http://www.englishpage.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5563.html

[修改时间: 2010-03-20 02:24 GMT]

你也许还没注意到,那位 teacher 明确指出了中国版英语词典和语法书中难以见到的一个观点:
Regret to must be followed by a verb which means say, for example, tell, inform, announce, report, verbs that do not have this meaning can not be used.

美国出版的TOEFL、GRE 以及 GMAT 的辅导书中应该也有类似说法。中国出版的语法书只说 regret 后面既可以跟动词不定式,也可以跟动名词,但没有明确说明可以跟哪类动词不定式。

所以,根据那位 teacher 所说,"Regret to die” 是错误的,尽管连“译界狂才”都在用。那个《点睛考试网》的例句 "I regret to have to do this, but I have no choice.” 显然也是错误的。而且,这个例句里的 regret 是遗憾的意思,而不是懊悔、后悔的意思。所以,关键不在于“已做”与“未做”、“过去”与“将来”。“虽九死其犹未悔”不是指“过去”、“已做”的事情,而正是指将来的事情,只不过那是一种假设而已,是虚拟语气(所以要用 would)。因此,"I won’t regret to die nine times” 是错上加错。

[Edited at 2010-03-20 06:07 GMT]


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nigerose  Identity Verified
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一家之言 Mar 20, 2010

“Regret to must be followed by a verb which means say, for example, tell, inform, announce, report, verbs that do not have this meaning can not be used.”


一家之言。
google可以发现“西方人”也有不遵守以上规则的。
另参考《新英汉词典》regret词条的例句:
I regret not to have started (或not having started) earlier.
Regret to have to announce the death of sb.

讨论到此为止吧,这个问题应该由语言学家去讨论和规范了。


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ysun  Identity Verified
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并非一家之言 Mar 20, 2010

nigerose wrote:

“Regret to must be followed by a verb which means say, for example, tell, inform, announce, report, verbs that do not have this meaning can not be used.”


一家之言。
google可以发现“西方人”也有不遵守以上规则的。
另参考《新英汉词典》regret词条的例句:
I regret not to have started (或not having started) earlier.
Regret to have to announce the death of sb.

讨论到此为止吧,这个问题应该由语言学家去讨论和规范了。

如果你不想再继续讨论,尽管请便,但别人是否仍想继续,那是应由别人自行决定的事情。我在此论坛与某些同仁讨论问题甚至激烈争论,往往并不是为了试图说服某些特定的对象,因为某些人是永远都别想说服的。但我相信,这种讨论对大家总是有益的,也包括对我自己。况且,尽管很多人没发言,但他们在默默地看。我相信大家自有公论。我的时间也很宝贵,我不会随便浪费。

所谓“西方人”,其中也包括 non-native English speakers。其中某些人不遵守以上规则,情有可原。即使是 native English speakers,也难免会犯英语语法错误。Google 并非是检验真理的唯一标准,只能作为自己判断问题的参考。要不然若哪天 Google 被灭了该怎么办?

关于《新英汉词典》的第一个例句,I regret to say that it is wrong if you say “I regret not to have started earlier” . However, it is correct if you say “I regret not having started earlier”.

有位“西方人”在网上提过类似的问题:
“However, I discovered a significant number of occurrences of sentences featuring the structure "I regret not to have done something" on Google.
Could I ask you if you would consider such kind of sentences as acceptable?”
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=255952
某些 native English speakers 的答复,也可以作为对此问题的答复。

至于另一例句 "Regret to have to announce the death of sb.”,我认为正确,因为实质上其动词是 announce,符合那位 "teacher" 的说法。我相信那位 "teacher" 就是语言学家。

当我发现《新英汉词典》与 Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English 之类的词典说法不一致时,我比较信后者。那并非是因为崇洋媚外,而是因为那毕竟是人家在解释他们自己的语言。例如,Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English 关于 regret 的第2种用法中,只举出 regret to say/inform/tell 几个例子。
http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/regret_1

纸版的Longman Contemporary English-Chinese Dictionary 关于这种用法的进一步说明是:used when bad news is to follow. 这与那位 "teacher" 的说法是一致的。

这茶喝到这会儿,也许喝出点味儿来了。:D 现在回到主题。关于“虽九死其犹未悔”几种不同的译法,简单归纳一下我的主要看法:

"Regret to Die” is grammatically wrong.

"Regret ... times” doesn’t even make any sense (如果把 times 看成是 regret 的宾语).

"Regret dying” or "Regret ... deaths” is grammatically correct and makes perfect sense.

[Edited at 2010-03-21 04:01 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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没事儿部分听了一下实况 -- 太长太慢了. 不过那一小段是这么讲的 ... Mar 21, 2010

ysun wrote:

如果我没听错的话,张璐对于“虽九死其犹未悔”的翻译不是 "I’d not regret a thousand times to die",而是 "I'd not regret a thousand deaths to die”。这种译法无瑕可谪,而且与著名翻译家杨宪益、戴乃迭夫妇的翻译完全一致。那么,"I’d not regret a thousand times to die" 是谁编出来的?



温家宝总理: 我深深爱着我的国家, 没有一片土地让我这样深情和激动, 没有一条河流让我这样沉思和起伏. 亦余心之所善兮, 虽九死(而)其犹未悔. 我将以此明志, 做好今后三年的工作.

张璐 (翻译): I have deep love for this country. I love every inch of its land, I love every river that flows on this piece of earth, with deep passion and deep affection. For the ideal that I hold dear to my heart, I'd not regret a thousand deaths to die. With this strong commitment, I will continue to devote myself to my work in the next three years.


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ysun  Identity Verified
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所以说张璐是被冤枉的 Mar 22, 2010

Steve,

确实如此。我看了这段视频之后,才发现张璐在这一段上是被冤枉的。张璐说话的速度并不快,而且每个单词发音都发得很清楚。不知为什么某些人会把 a thousand deaths to die 听成 a thousand times to die 的。接着,媒体就以讹传讹。如果是英语水平一般的人听错倒也罢了,但连某些专家也听错,那就说不过去了。某著名大学英语系主任在点评时说:“九死”翻译成 thousand times(上千次),很地道。我不知她是怎么听的。退一步讲,即使张璐翻译的确实是 I'd not regret a thousand times to die,那位专家也应该知道那是一句病句。

另外,某些报道在表扬张璐的同时,说她有两次跟总理抢话。我认为这也是冤枉。其实,并不是她抢话,而是总理讲话速度太慢,而且两句话之间的停顿时间太长。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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"tricky language" Mar 22, 2010

Yueyin,

那现场记者之多啊, 真吓人. 当中央领导人的口头翻译连古诗也得记得滚瓜烂熟, 事后还要被学术界的人评头品足, 我看再高的薪水都不值得.:D

Kidding aside, 确实如你所说,"regret to" (infinitive) 是 "抱歉" 的意思. 表达 "后悔" 的意思是要用 regret(intransitive) 或者 regret(transitive) + noun/gerund.


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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FWIW Mar 22, 2010

Some dictionary definitions found on the web for the word "regret" ...

http://www.wordswarm.net/dictionary/regret.html


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ysun  Identity Verified
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当口译确实很不容易 Mar 22, 2010

wherestip wrote:

Yueyin,

那现场记者之多啊, 真吓人. 当中央领导人的口头翻译连古诗也得记得滚瓜烂熟, 事后还要被学术界的人评头品足, 我看再高的薪水都不值得.:D

是啊!当口译确实很不容易,当这种场合的口译就更不容易。即使把这几句古诗译成白话文,要想译得好都不容易,更何况译成英文呢。让那些资深点评专家们自己译一下试试,就知道滋味了。再说,这位首长忽然给你来一句“华山虽高,顶有过路”,另一位首长又忽然给你来一句“山不在高,有仙则灵”,使你无法预料,防不胜防。

现在网上、媒体形成两个极端。一个极端是过度吹捧,另一极端是竭力贬低。中国的很多事情就是这样走极端。某些人自己英语水平不怎么样,却还在那里拼命挑别人的毛病。

其实,温总理引用的这几句古诗都在他的开场白里。开场白应该事先有个发言稿。一方面可以事先给翻译看看,做一下准备;另一方面,温总理也用不着一边想一边说,耽误功夫。

至于薪水,现在北京物价那么贵,年薪几十万人民币也宽裕不到哪里去。如果单纯从薪水角度出发,我看这种高水平的翻译还不如去联合国当翻译。在那里,薪水会高得多,其它福利待遇也高得多。

[Edited at 2010-03-22 18:59 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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没有一片土地 ..., 没有一条河流 ... Mar 22, 2010

>>> "我深深爱着我的国家, 没有一片土地让我这样深情和激动, 没有一条河流让我这样沉思和起伏."

别说文言文了. 就是这句白话, 也不好理解. 我看了半天都不太懂是究竟怎么比喻的

好像 温总理 想讲 "我对祖国的爱 比山高、比水深" 之类的话语, 但会上句子说出来很绕, 比喻得很是抽象. 依我看这种句子中文本身就不容易分析理解, 翻起来更是令人挠头. 现场只能像 张璐 那样把大概意思表达一下, 把 "土地河流" 都提到就是了.

我怀疑是不是中文原句句子结构不恰当啊? 还是我对如今中文的比喻和修辞方式跟不上形势?

"我深深爱着我的国家, 没有一片土地让我深情和激动, 没有一条河流让我沉思和起伏."


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ysun  Identity Verified
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这就显示了翻译的水平 Mar 22, 2010

wherestip wrote:

>>> "我深深爱着我的国家, 没有一片土地让我这样深情和激动, 没有一条河流让我这样沉思和起伏."

别说文言文了. 就是这句白话, 也不好理解. 我看了半天都不太懂是究竟怎么比喻的

Yes, the original sentence "could have been better". 我想温总理的本意是想说, "我深深爱着我的国家, 除此之外,没有一片土地让我这样深情和激动, 没有一条河流让我这样沉思和起伏."
张璐虽然没有逐字翻译,但已经把温总理的 deep passion and deep affection 翻出来了:
"I have deep love for this country. I love every inch of its land, I love every river that flows on this piece of earth, with deep passion and deep affection."


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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capturing the essence Mar 22, 2010

ysun wrote:

张璐虽然没有逐字翻译,但已经把温总理的 deep passion and deep affection 翻出来了 ...



对, 实质是肯定抓住了 -- 这是最为重要的.


[Edited at 2010-03-22 17:59 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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It suddenly dawned on me Mar 22, 2010

>>> 没有一片土地让我这样深情和激动, 没有一条河流让我这样沉思和起伏.

也许这是新的 "英式中文"

No land inspires in me more love and excitement, no river stirs up more thoughts and emotions.

... or something to that effect.

自圆其说一下, 也许是我乱解释, 请各位包涵. But this explanation makes sense to me.

离开中国太久了, 没想到中央首长讲话措辞都有一定的外语成分.


[Edited at 2010-03-22 23:38 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Your explanation makes sense to me Mar 23, 2010

wherestip wrote:

离开中国太久了, 没想到中央首长讲话措辞都有一定的外语成分.

而且还有一定的古汉语成分。

我想他在前面省略了“除了我的祖国以外”或类似的短语。


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Your version also makes sense Mar 23, 2010

[quote]wherestip wrote:

"我深深爱着我的国家, 没有一片土地让我深情和激动, 没有一条河流让我沉思和起伏."


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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中文演变 Mar 23, 2010

[quote]ysun wrote:

[quote]wherestip wrote:

"我深深爱着我的国家, 没有一片土地让我深情和激动, 没有一条河流让我沉思和起伏."


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