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"这一次大陆又输了"
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wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
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Let's do a back translation assuming "大" is a noun Sep 29, 2014

... and see if it passes muster ...


岂止于大 ?! --> It doesn't stop at being big, does it ?
Or -----------> It isn't a matter of merely being big, is it ?
Or -----------> You think it's only a matter of being big ?!
Or -----------> Think it's merely (the) bigness ?!
Or -----------> Think it's merely the large size ?!
Or -----------> How can one say it's only the large size ?!
...


Comparing any of these bac
... See more
... and see if it passes muster ...


岂止于大 ?! --> It doesn't stop at being big, does it ?
Or -----------> It isn't a matter of merely being big, is it ?
Or -----------> You think it's only a matter of being big ?!
Or -----------> Think it's merely (the) bigness ?!
Or -----------> Think it's merely the large size ?!
Or -----------> How can one say it's only the large size ?!
...


Comparing any of these back translations** to the original slogan in English - "Bigger than bigger",
well, I'd give "岂止于大" a passing grade, but not an A.


** (others are welcome to come up with their own back translations of course. But even if mine are flawed, it is apparent that the translation in the form of a rhetorical question had unnecessarily altered the assertive tone of the original. On top of that, the meaning of bigger had been mistranslated for no good reason.)


[Edited at 2014-09-30 01:20 GMT]
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jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
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English to Chinese
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GOOD POINT Sep 30, 2014

wherestip wrote:
On top of that, the meaning of bigger had been mistranslated with no good reason.)


[Edited at 2014-09-30 00:56 GMT]


Right. 所以这个译文并非抓住了精髓,恰恰是漏掉了精髓。


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 16:00
Chinese to English
My history may be wrong! Sep 30, 2014

wherestip wrote:

"更大" has been in existence at least since I first arrived in China, and that was the end of 1957.

Yeah, that's a fair point. I should revise my argument: Chinese has several ways of doing comparative adjectives (大、大于、更大、大些、(比)较大、大了(?)), so to say that "bigger" must be translated to any specific one would be a mistake.
Of course, I don't think the "ger" needs to be translated at all for a slogan - there's much more freedom.

Let's do a back translation assuming "大" is a noun


Well hang on there! That's a biased test if ever I saw one! A back translation specifically eschews rhetorical quality in favour of literalness, so of course a back translation isn't going to get you a decent slogan.

If I were translating 岂止于大, I would think about the following things:
1) The "content word" is 大, and it's in a prominent position at the end of the phrase. Therefore my English translation should also make the "big" prominent. I'd probably put it at the beginning. (In truth, I would even think about repeating it, but I won't do that here because it would kind of beg the question.)
2) It's concise. The English version should be concise
3) 大 here is an abstract noun. In English, abstracts often lack impact, so I might have to change the part of speech.
4) The 岂 or 岂止, whichever reading we use, form rhetorical questions, but rhetorical questions are used differently in English. Forcing the slogan into rhetorical question form in English would *not* necessarily be a faithful reflection of the "feel" of the Chinese.

Given those considerations:
岂止于大: Bigger and better Bigger now. Better now.
Big, and much more besides
More than just a bigger phone
Size isn't everything, so the iPhone 6 has more
Broad, tall and much, much more

Anyway, I'm still not competent to judge the slogan's quality, so my point is not to say that 岂止于大 is an awesome line. It's just that a lot of these criticisms seem like an attempt to find technical flaws where they don't exist. If there is a problem with the slogan, it's that it's rhetorically not that great.
My personal opinion is that 岂止于大 is rhetorically much better than the English "Bigger than bigger," which is one of the clunkiest straplines I've heard in ages. But like I say, that's not my call to make.


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 16:00
Chinese to English
Noooo Sep 30, 2014

wherestip wrote:

...it is apparent that the translation in the form of a rhetorical question had unnecessarily altered the assertive tone of the original. On top of that, the meaning of bigger had been mistranslated with no good reason.)

No, these are exactly the wrong points.

First, the rhetorical question thing. It's a massive error to assume that the rhetorical question form in Chinese works anything like the rhetorical question form in English. In English, they are rare, rare beasts. They are super-marked, and using them with anything but the lightest touch makes you sound hectoring and self-important. I've noticed myself using them with my kids a lot, and I deliberately try to cut it out. They can easily end up feeling coercive, rather than persuasive.

That's much less the case in Chinese, both classical and modern. Mikey's 7, in second grade at a Chinese elementary, and he is being taught to use rhetorical questions in his compositions already. That would be insane in English. My feeling in Chinese is that they are much more of an assertion of sincerity (kinda like the English "I really think that..."); whereas in English they can sound insincere.

Conclusion: I would never equate the two unless I were doing a back translation where the aim is to preserve the form exactly.

Then the "bigger" thing. First, it's not correct to say it hasn't been translated. 大 can mean bigger. The 大 is not marked as a comparative, but that choice is up to the translator. 岂止于大 could very well mean "Much more than bigger."

Second, and much more important: the translator of slogans has the freedom to drop non-salient points where necessary, and this particular comparative was not hugely salient. The difference between a "big phone" and a "bigger phone" is subtle at best.

Third, this "no good reason" thing. I can give you one very good reason: 岂止于大 is rhythmically lovely. 岂止更大 is about as ugly a phrase as one might wish to find on this earth. It's about on a par with "bigger than bigger."


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:00
Chinese to English
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That hurts :D Sep 30, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

Well hang on there! That's a biased test if ever I saw one! A back translation specifically eschews rhetorical quality in favour of literalness, so of course a back translation isn't going to get you a decent slogan.



Phil,

I'm not talking about getting back the original slogan. I'm talking about getting back the essential meaning and to some extent the tone.

I would never under any circumstance do a word-for-word literal translation, even while doing a "back translation".


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 16:00
Chinese to English
Industry practice Sep 30, 2014

wherestip wrote:

I would never under any circumstance do a word-for-word literal translation, even while doing a "back translation".

Oh, I see what you mean. In the industry, "back translation" is a technical term for a kind of QA process, which does involve something like a "word-for-word translation." That was just me reading too much into the term you used.


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:00
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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So you钟情于“岂止于大” AND YOU ARE SAYING 岂止更大 IS VERY UGLY Sep 30, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

wherestip wrote:

...it is apparent that the translation in the form of a rhetorical question had unnecessarily altered the assertive tone of the original. On top of that, the meaning of bigger had been mistranslated with no good reason.)

No, these are exactly the wrong points.

First, the rhetorical question thing. It's a massive error to assume that the rhetorical question form in Chinese works anything like the rhetorical question form in English. In English, they are rare, rare beasts. They are super-marked, and using them with anything but the lightest touch makes you sound hectoring and self-important. I've noticed myself using them with my kids a lot, and I deliberately try to cut it out. They can easily end up feeling coercive, rather than persuasive.

That's much less the case in Chinese, both classical and modern. Mikey's 7, in second grade at a Chinese elementary, and he is being taught to use rhetorical questions in his compositions already. That would be insane in English. My feeling in Chinese is that they are much more of an assertion of sincerity (kinda like the English "I really think that..."); whereas in English they can sound insincere.

Conclusion: I would never equate the two unless I were doing a back translation where the aim is to preserve the form exactly.

Then the "bigger" thing. First, it's not correct to say it hasn't been translated. 大 can mean bigger. The 大 is not marked as a comparative, but that choice is up to the translator. 岂止于大 could very well mean "Much more than bigger."

Second, and much more important: the translator of slogans has the freedom to drop non-salient points where necessary, and this particular comparative was not hugely salient. The difference between a "big phone" and a "bigger phone" is subtle at best.

Third, this "no good reason" thing. I can give you one very good reason: 岂止于大 is rhythmically lovely. 岂止更大 is about as ugly a phrase as one might wish to find on this earth. It's about on a par with "bigger than bigger."


我题目上写的是你的意思吗?如果是,这个有点无厘头。于字那么让你爱,更字那么让你憎恶,理据在哪里?

两个词组的区别没那么180度。Don't get too excited.

[Edited at 2014-09-30 01:48 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:00
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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发售日期随后更新 Sep 30, 2014

http://www.expreview.com/35949.html

苹果的翻译的硬伤是找只会字对字直接转换的翻译。

上边的链接中有“发售日期随后更新“,不管原文是不是Update, 似乎都应该翻译成”发售日期容后公布“意思才对。

中文里的”更新“,一定是相对于原有的一个时间点。根本就没有这个时间点,哪里谈得上什么更新啊。


翻译得让人着急啊!

[Edited at 2014-09-30 02:16 GMT]


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
Prerequisite Sep 30, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

Then the "bigger" thing. First, it's not correct to say it hasn't been translated. 大 can mean bigger. The 大 is not marked as a comparative, but that choice is up to the translator. 岂止于大 could very well mean "Much more than bigger."

Yes, 大 can mean bigger provided that the sentence indicates a comparison as shown in the example you provided yesterday:
Phil Hand wrote:

首先说一下中文形容词的“比较级”问题:中文原来没有“bigger”这样的比较级。“这两个,哪个大?”=“Which one of these is bigger?”


 
LoyalTrans
LoyalTrans
Local time: 16:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
Can't agree more Sep 30, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

岂止于大 is rhythmically lovely. 岂止更大 is about as ugly a phrase as one might wish to find on this earth. It's about on a par with "bigger than bigger."


"岂止于大"和“岂止更大”的优劣在我看来是一目了然的事——虽然后者不一定像Phil说的那么不堪——但前者怎么又跟语法扯上了?

唐诗宋词里多少优美的句子是“不合语法”的? “春风又绿江南岸", 我不知道如果要"合乎语法”应该怎么说。翻译如果能翻到这个境界才是牛人。

个人感觉,Bigger than bigger透出一股浓厚的土豪气息,说实话,真的觉得中文译文要比原文好。


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
硬伤 Sep 30, 2014

jyuan_us wrote:

wherestip wrote:
On top of that, the meaning of bigger had been mistranslated with no good reason.)


[Edited at 2014-09-30 00:56 GMT]


Right. 所以这个译文并非抓住了精髓,恰恰是漏掉了精髓。

所以说是硬伤,除非视而不见。


 
LoyalTrans
LoyalTrans
Local time: 16:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
说到比较级 Sep 30, 2014

“岂止于大”,在我理解就是不仅仅大,这不已经暗含了“更大”的意思?bigger难道非要翻译成“较大”、“更大”才算对?也许一般文件的翻译,翻成“更大”更准确,不过广告语这么翻,我看不出有什么要指摘的。

 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:00
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
我对我自己的看法的总结性发言 Sep 30, 2014

1 岂止于大,断句不清楚,这不是修辞手段,也不是文字游戏。这两个手段用的好的话都能给受众以愉悦感。苹果的CASE不是这样,而是翻译的不到位,欠考虑。

2 如果断句为 “岂止+于大”, 那么,这句话最佳的翻译应为”岂止更大“或者”岂止是大“,于字是错误的用法,因为岂止后边不能跟”于“。”于大“两个字在一起,不能当作形容词用,它没有这个功能;把
... See more
1 岂止于大,断句不清楚,这不是修辞手段,也不是文字游戏。这两个手段用的好的话都能给受众以愉悦感。苹果的CASE不是这样,而是翻译的不到位,欠考虑。

2 如果断句为 “岂止+于大”, 那么,这句话最佳的翻译应为”岂止更大“或者”岂止是大“,于字是错误的用法,因为岂止后边不能跟”于“。”于大“两个字在一起,不能当作形容词用,它没有这个功能;把于当成介词,大字当成名次,很牵强。

有人认为”岂止更大“或者”岂止是大“是大白话。 大白话有错吗?大白话才亲切哩!那些不喜欢直白的翻译的人,也不知道大白话怎么招惹你们了。能用大白话翻译出来的东西,非得用所谓的“文词儿”,除了炫耀自己会写古文以外,看不出有什么别的用处。

其实,经典的成功的广告用语都是大白话,比如“两片”,比如“吃嘛嘛香”。

我喜欢平白、朴素的表达方式,它们能给我愉悦感。

我也不排斥”奢华“的表达方式,前提是这种奢华不能以牺牲清晰作为代价,不能绕来绕去地折磨受众。

3 如果断句为”岂+止于+大“,显然这里不当地省略了”能“,”可“或”敢“等字,有语法错误。

[Edited at 2014-09-30 02:54 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-09-30 02:58 GMT]
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QHE
QHE
United States
Local time: 04:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
Your remark is tinctured with prejudice! Sep 30, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:
岂止更大 is about as ugly a phrase as one might wish to find on this earth.




[Edited at 2014-09-30 03:35 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:00
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
“春风又绿江南岸"完全合乎语法 Sep 30, 2014

LoyalTrans wrote:

Phil Hand wrote:

岂止于大 is rhythmically lovely. 岂止更大 is about as ugly a phrase as one might wish to find on this earth. It's about on a par with "bigger than bigger."


"岂止于大"和“岂止更大”的优劣在我看来是一目了然的事——虽然后者不一定像Phil说的那么不堪——但前者怎么又跟语法扯上了?

唐诗宋词里多少优美的句子是“不合语法”的? “春风又绿江南岸", 我不知道如果要"合乎语法”应该怎么说。翻译如果能翻到这个境界才是牛人。

个人感觉,Bigger than bigger透出一股浓厚的土豪气息,说实话,真的觉得中文译文要比原文好。


无外乎简单的主谓宾结构。


 
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