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KudoZ term help & paragraph translation request
Thread poster: Libin PhD
Libin PhD  Identity Verified
Chinese to English
+ ...
Jun 2, 2002

KudoZ is created as a terminology help. However, we are getting paragraphs that is as long as 66 words. I think that is too much. We need to somehow let people know the purpose of KudoZ.

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David Rockell
Chinese to English
Perhaps there could be a separate (paid) area for this Jun 2, 2002

This has been a problem with all language groups in Proz and has been debated strenuosuly in other forums. I can understand that sometimes, and especially as a freelance translator, you can get stuck and sometimes you are left with a few difficult paragraphs that you are mystified by and wish they would just evaporate. You might be caught in somewhat of a dilemma, because as they are longer than a sentence and yet too small to pass on as a \'job\' to some one more capable to 渡过难关. Perhaps, there could be a special forum for paragaphs within a certain wordcount where professionals could offer their help for a set fee. Often it is a question of inspiration as one translator may have a big problem translating something and then another just translates it in a flash and says \"what was the problem?\" And the problem might well have been a fundamental misunderstanding or lack of background knowledge that has lead to you heading off on a tangent and not seeing the wood for the trees.

Slightly off the track is one idea I have had for an inhouse translation team where a group of people work together in a \"把握\" system, whereby a job is passed done a chain and each person translates what they \"know for certain\" at a glance and anything they have the slightest doubt about is passed down the chain (and of course in a pecking order). For example, anyone will know how to translate 于1995年3月5日,张丽离开了北京 but not everyone (and me) will know immediately how to translate 阐述了IBM 的品牌内涵.

Of course, what I am sugesting is reducing each translator to worker on a production line, but production lines seem to be the way to make things quickly and it is possible that this could be applied to translation too. I am a great believer in binary systems as I feel that of you can reduce anything to two choices (in this case \"know\" or \"don\'t know\") you can can create amazingly fast and clear systems.

The real goal is to create a translation city in China\'s western regions where translators build a Silicon valley in the deserts of Gansu and enjoying the strong support of the government and local herders and camel drivers, the community thrives into a city that becomes known as the reverse of the Babel of old - a city famous for its mutual understanding. I look forward to packing up my stuff and driving out there to spend my remaining years translating the likes of the fomer sentences and passing on the tough stuff down the line...

Back to the point, some people just \"拎勿清\" and so will try to abuse other\'s good nature, so perhaps the idea of a place to \"buy\" this kind of help is not too farfetched.

Thanks Bin Li for your encouragement for my Chinese studies.



Regards,



Dave





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Antonella Andreella  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 20:42
German to Italian
+ ...
Agree agree BUT Jun 2, 2002

We first have to let it know to peers who, when asked about a term, are so generous to translate the whole paragraph!







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Marta Argat  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:42
Chinese to Ukrainian
+ ...
介绍KUDOZ规则网页没有中文翻译 Jun 2, 2002

可能有的人没有看过http://www.proz.com/glossary/?bs=1&eid_c=20096 或,对他们来说,英文介绍比较复杂。





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Gideon van Zoest
Local time: 20:42
German to Dutch
+ ...
Agree! Jun 2, 2002

I fully agree. One would say that people don\'t want to spend much effort to do a translationjob, rather than to let do the job by others. It is a good thing that those kind of questions are declined.





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Bart B. Van Bockstaele  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 14:42
Dutch
+ ...
One concept Jun 2, 2002

I agree, Bin Li. I can accept a few words if those few words have a chance to be translated into one word or into one idea, but 66 words is way off. Someone who needs \'help\' like that is simply not a translator seeking a second opinion from a collegue but a customer looking for a free ride.

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-06-02 20:59 ]


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Libin PhD  Identity Verified
Chinese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you for your input. Jun 3, 2002

Usually, if the term needs to be illustrated in a sentence that the ask provides, I will not hesitate to do so. However, several sentences are definitely too much. It qualifies for a minimum job, for which I think most of us charge agencies $40-60, more if it is direct client.

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-06-03 20:49 ]


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Libin PhD  Identity Verified
Chinese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Production Line, I like this idea! Jun 3, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-06-02 06:11, David Rockell wrote:

This has been a problem with all language groups in Proz and has been debated strenuosuly in other forums. I can understand that sometimes, and especially as a freelance translator, you can get stuck and sometimes you are left with a few difficult paragraphs that you are mystified by and wish they would just evaporate. You might be caught in somewhat of a dilemma, because as they are longer than a sentence and yet too small to pass on as a \'job\' to some one more capable to 渡过难关. Perhaps, there could be a special forum for paragaphs within a certain wordcount where professionals could offer their help for a set fee. Often it is a question of inspiration as one translator may have a big problem translating something and then another just translates it in a flash and says \"what was the problem?\" And the problem might well have been a fundamental misunderstanding or lack of background knowledge that has lead to you heading off on a tangent and not seeing the wood for the trees.

Slightly off the track is one idea I have had for an inhouse translation team where a group of people work together in a \"把握\" system, whereby a job is passed done a chain and each person translates what they \"know for certain\" at a glance and anything they have the slightest doubt about is passed down the chain (and of course in a pecking order). For example, anyone will know how to translate 于1995年3月5日,张丽离开了北京 but not everyone (and me) will know immediately how to translate 阐述了IBM 的品牌内涵.

Of course, what I am sugesting is reducing each translator to worker on a production line, but production lines seem to be the way to make things quickly and it is possible that this could be applied to translation too. I am a great believer in binary systems as I feel that of you can reduce anything to two choices (in this case \"know\" or \"don\'t know\") you can can create amazingly fast and clear systems.

The real goal is to create a translation city in China\'s western regions where translators build a Silicon valley in the deserts of Gansu and enjoying the strong support of the government and local herders and camel drivers, the community thrives into a city that becomes known as the reverse of the Babel of old - a city famous for its mutual understanding. I look forward to packing up my stuff and driving out there to spend my remaining years translating the likes of the fomer sentences and passing on the tough stuff down the line...

Back to the point, some people just \"拎勿清\" and so will try to abuse other\'s good nature, so perhaps the idea of a place to \"buy\" this kind of help is not too farfetched.

Thanks Bin Li for your encouragement for my Chinese studies.



Regards,



Dave











Dave, I think this production line idea is great as each person can contribute what he is sure. This should work for large agencies or corporate language departments where they have several translators in the same language pair.

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David Rockell
Chinese to English
中国加油! Jun 4, 2002

刚看完了中国首场比赛,回到电脑前想“化悲伤为力量 ”却鼻还酸,泪未干,头上给一朵拉美黑云笼罩了,一切翻译工作都变得毫无意义,再多的公司简介也无法将思路从精神上的挫伤转回经济上的利益。啤酒的度数不高,喝得却不少。尽管如此,我相信我还能客观的说:中国队打得很好,总体水平与对手不分上下,多几分运气结果可能会不一样, 不过至少也得承认对手打得也很好,中国队输得也不冤。 我希望广大中国球迷和国际友人(我为后者)不会因这次“绊脚”而气馁,反而会更加热情的支持中国队继续“足下生辉”报答球迷们的无私拥戴。中国加油!!!

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-06-04 13:32 ]


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:42
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
The best way to deal with it is to leave it un-answered. Jun 4, 2002

Hello, People!



It is wonderful to read all your messages after a period a \"quiet moment\" in the Chinese Forum!



After offering my translation help to the Kudos questions and posting Kudos questions myself for half a year, I also noticed some issues that are not what I expected, one of which is what Bin Li mentioned above. I think the free Kudos help is intended for the translators to learn something, to learn the better or most appropriate way to translate something the asker is not sure or does not know. Although there is no restriction at ProZ.com on the length of the sentence or word count as far as I am aware of, it seems to me it is an etiquette issue as how I look at it. I found some askers acted very cocky, no translator profiles, and even under “anonymous”. They flew in and out of Kudos section with only one goal in mind, that is to get the free translation for the words or sentences they stuck with. I rarely see them showing their sense of “community” by participating in the discussion, offering their opinions and suggestions, or joining in the discussion in the Chinese Forum. Sometimes I wonder how can someone only want to pick the fruit but does not want to contribute to grow the fruit, and can feel so balanced psychotically. I guess the best way to deal with them is to leave their question un-answered and un-graded, because I truly believe the answerer has more control than the asker on this issue. I am sure such treatment will send a message to the asker to behave in a way that deserve our generous help.



I will post a new message soon to discuss the etiquette issues that have not been covered by the “Etiquette” in ProZ.com, and I hope it will lead to a constructive discussion.



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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:42
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
中国队能够参加世界杯足球赛就是非常值得骄傲的事情! Jun 4, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-06-04 10:05, David Rockell wrote:

刚看完了中国首场比赛,回到电脑前想“化悲伤为力量 ”却鼻还酸,泪未干,头上给一朵拉美黑云笼罩了,一切翻译工作都变得毫无意义,再多的公司简介也无法将思路从精神上的挫伤转回经济上的利益。啤酒的度数不高,喝得却不少。尽管如此,我相信我还能客观的说:中国队打得很好,总体水平与对手不分上下,多几分运气结果可能会不一样, 不过至少也得承认对手打得也很好,中国队输得也不冤。 我希望广大中国球迷和国际友人(我为后者)不会因这次“绊脚”而气馁,反而会更加热情的支持中国队继续“足下生辉”报答球迷们的无私拥戴。中国加油!!!

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-06-04 13:32 ]





Dave,

你比我幸运多了。你能看到比赛的实况,我可没的看,因为美国还没有转播。美国的电视台这一点很差劲。他们只喜欢转播美国队会得到冠军的比赛,所以我可能看不到中国队的比赛了。烦请你代我多欢呼几声!



中国队能够参加这次世界杯足球赛就是非常值得骄傲的事情了。我们应该再给他们一些时间进入16强、8强和冠军。 从杨晨的身上我看到了中国队和中国的希望。这一天会来的。中国开始冲击这个足球大门已有半个世纪了,当然成功的一天来得越早越好,我相信这一天一定会很快到来的。



中国队加油!



Kevin



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David Rockell
Chinese to English
I agree with Kevin's idea (无为而治之) Jun 5, 2002

I agree with Kevin\'s idea that the best idea might be to ignore those questions that transgress the generally accepted bounds of etiquette. This might serve to discourage would-be freeloaders. In this world, we all have to claw our way forward to survive and so it is natural that some people of alternative moral attitudes (notice the PC wording, I mean 人渣)would still hold out hope that a juicy and piping hot pie might fall from the sky. However, it should also be noted that even operating in the utmost good faith and doing one\'s duty to God and the Queen (and Scout Law), it is still difficult enough to run a word business and make more than the Joneses next door (actually the Zhaos and I wish their daughter could play the piano a little better) and so (1) in a way, I am amazed that these people even bother and (2) if they do manage to piece together a 100,000 job from free contributions from translator forums, I have to almost admire them for their devient tenancity and gall. This Internet sure is a double edged sword for translators. Still, what is the goal? - to make a million out of translation? To help the people of the world understand why it is better to throw away their own traditional cultures and start eating Macdonalds and playing Gameboy? To use language to spread a higher doctrine of love and peace? Hmmm, I wish I could find an answer to this quick because I have a stack of jobs and yet all I want to do is go an pick a fight with Whiskers Wang in my local vegetable market. Perhaps, it is just the footie. Apologies for posting that unrelated topic on this thread. I was disconsolate.

There is another answer to this problem: I offer to translate any paragraphs anyone might have a problem with for a set rate of $5 a pop. For languages I am not totally conversant in (don\'t know) I will first put the source paragraphs through a MT program to Chinese and then retranslate them to the source language. Of course, I can\'t guarantee that they will come out meaning quite the same thing as what they started, but I can promise the utmost good faith and hell, what did you expect for 5 bucks? Then again, what do you expect for free...?





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Libin PhD  Identity Verified
Chinese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Agree!! Jun 5, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-06-04 21:45, Tongli wrote:

Hello, People!



It is wonderful to read all your messages after a period a \"quiet moment\" in the Chinese Forum!



After offering my translation help to the Kudos questions and posting Kudos questions myself for half a year, I also noticed some issues that are not what I expected, one of which is what Bin Li mentioned above. I think the free Kudos help is intended for the translators to learn something, to learn the better or most appropriate way to translate something the asker is not sure or does not know. Although there is no restriction at ProZ.com on the length of the sentence or word count as far as I am aware of, it seems to me it is an etiquette issue as how I look at it. I found some askers acted very cocky, no translator profiles, and even under “anonymous”. They flew in and out of Kudos section with only one goal in mind, that is to get the free translation for the words or sentences they stuck with. I rarely see them showing their sense of “community” by participating in the discussion, offering their opinions and suggestions, or joining in the discussion in the Chinese Forum. Sometimes I wonder how can someone only want to pick the fruit but does not want to contribute to grow the fruit, and can feel so balanced psychotically. I guess the best way to deal with them is to leave their question un-answered and un-graded, because I truly believe the answerer has more control than the asker on this issue. I am sure such treatment will send a message to the asker to behave in a way that deserve our generous help.



I will post a new message soon to discuss the etiquette issues that have not been covered by the “Etiquette” in ProZ.com, and I hope it will lead to a constructive discussion.







Kevin, I totally agree with what you said above. I was attempted to answer the question but did not feel too good about it. I would have done it if it is less than, say, 40 words. After I counted the number of words and found that it was 66. I thought I would leave a message here to at least raise some awareness about KudoZ TERM help. After all, it is intended for term help, not to help people with whole paragraph translation.



Thanks for your comments again.



Bin

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