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Thread poster: Kevin Yang
ysun
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硬骨头 Jun 22, 2006

Wenjer Leuschel wrote:

我想,你經歷過文革,應該明白,在那些緊急關鍵的時刻,會有多少人慷慨就義而不是隨便抓個人替死或隨便拉個墊背的。George Orwell 的 1984 裡同樣有那種情節的描述:在四月的蘋果樹下,我背叛了你,你背叛了我。

老實說,正人君子、英雄、義士、烈士有許多種,也有些出於歷史的誤會。從瞿秋白受刑前寫的書信可以看出一些端倪。只要勇敢面對自己的命運,我想都可以稱為正人君子。如此看來,梁啟超還是不比譚嗣同差的。

- Wenjer


Wenjer:

我并非是要贬低梁啟超。另外,我确实见过在文革中“隨便抓個人替死或隨便拉個墊背的”,但也亲眼见过真正的硬骨头,例如文革时任化工部部长的高杨。在一次万人斗争大会上,三个年轻力壮的红卫兵分别压他的头和两条胳膊要他低头(所谓飞机式),但也几乎压不住那个瘦弱的小老头。


 
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
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有些東西不容易判斷 Jun 22, 2006

Yueyin Sun wrote:
硬骨头


樂音兄:

我曾經寫了一篇故事 "瞿教授的女兒",說的是我大學時代的一位老師的先生的故事。我在某個商展上巧遇瞿教授的女兒,由於同住一個民家,吃飯食聊起大學生活,發現她是我的老師的女兒。又由於我對國民黨政府多所批評讓她說起瞿教授從來不會向任何人提起的往事。

瞿教授的先生是上海人,她則是第二代的華僑;解放時他們都在國外念書,回不了家,但瞿教授的父親希望他們留在海外。沒想到她先生收到來到台灣的友人一封信說國民黨政府需要他這樣的人才在外交部。他帶著太太來到台灣,沒幾年的光景被羅織通匪濟匪的罪狀,打入大牢十年。回家後變成廢人一個,連洗腳都會害怕,因為他被用洗腳盆通電整得很慘。後來他上吊自殺了。他的兩個女兒一直以為他們父親讓他們家蒙羞,還覺得他死了倒好,但等到李登輝上台後,國民黨的統治逐漸轉型成為西方的民主,瞿教授才告訴他們真實的情況。後悔從國外來到台灣投靠國民黨嗎?從何後悔起?那只是個無奈。

等我在舊系統裡找到那篇故事,我會寄給你。

如果是要命的話,那好辦,死了就算了。那些威權統治者整人的方法是叫你生不如死,所以硬骨頭也毫無用處的。有些東西不是親自經歷,非常不容易判斷。我自己則是感到有危險時必定計畫逃亡,1979 年離開台灣其實就是很清楚即將發生些什麼事。我絕對不逞英雄的,因為我的犧牲會是無謂的,這一點我很清楚。目前台灣的情況有文革的氣氛,我又在準備離開了。這是我的命運,但既然能為台灣做的事很少,我不要加劇其他人的苦難就行了。這樣的生命是很悲微的,但我自認為自己也是個正人君子,因為至少不給別人惹麻煩,該輪到我承擔的必定承擔。只是我不會讓那些劇烈的運動落到我頭上來罷了。算是夠幸運了。

- Wenjer


 
Last Hermit
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With all due respect, Jun 22, 2006

did you mean to say 'train-jumper' instead of 'black rider'?

weiwei wrote:

Those who take the train without paying are called "Schwarzfahrer" ("black rider"). If you get caught, the fine is Eur 40!!! Whenever I took the train with my friend, she'd insist on playing "black rider". This always gave me a nervous breakdown for the entire journey; I had to keep popping my head out at each station to make sure there were no conducters coming aboard. I can understand why she would want to take this risk. Train tickets are just crazily expensive in Germany! Don't ask me about the exact prices - I don't know because I never paid for my trips. I just got a new car last week, so now I do not have to take such a risk again.

To be honest (though it might not sound humble), I think Singapore has the cleanest metro stations. Food, drinks, pets, durians, etc. are not allowed in the stations, so there is really nothing much to mess the place up. You don't see much of graffitis (except for "John loves Mary forever", "I love Andy Lau"...). Try drawing one, and you can get ready to pull down your pants and get caned on the butt!

The worst train stations I have seen are actually in New York (no offense to the New Yorkers). Dark and wet with water dripping from the ceiling... weird-looking people loitering around... rubbish everywhere... That was about five years ago. Maybe things have changed.

Hey, the above are just my observations. I don't mean to say that my country is good and others are bad. Please, don't shoot any arrows at me, okay?????


[Edited at 2005-06-30 23:31]


 
Denyce Seow
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Black rider Jun 22, 2006

Last Hermit wrote:

did you mean to say 'train-jumper' instead of 'black rider'?



I mean "black rider" for "Schwarzfahrer" in German. Someone is called a "schwarzfahrer" in Germany if he or she takes the train without buying a ticket.

By the way, what's a "train-jumper"? Not a real term, I think. I can imagine what it is, and I definitely do not want to be that.

[Edited at 2006-06-22 17:16]


 
ysun
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Carlsbad Caverns National Park, New Mexico, USA. Jun 22, 2006

谈文革太沉重,是否言归正传谈旅游,大家轻松一下?

大家都知道中国的长城、紫禁城、天坛等都被列为 Top Wonders of the World,但不知大家是否知道美国新墨西哥州的 Carlsbad Caverns 同样也是 one of the Top Wonders of the World? �
... See more
谈文革太沉重,是否言归正传谈旅游,大家轻松一下?

大家都知道中国的长城、紫禁城、天坛等都被列为 Top Wonders of the World,但不知大家是否知道美国新墨西哥州的 Carlsbad Caverns 同样也是 one of the Top Wonders of the World? 我3年前曾去那里游览。请见: http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/np.carlsbad-caverns.html

在其中一个地下洞穴里,从洞顶上悬下的一根钟乳石柱的末端与下面另一根拔地而起的钟乳石柱的顶端十分接近,中间只有信用卡厚度那么一点缝。导游说,那就好像是两个情人在接吻。他接着说:"So, sometimes, the distance between two lovers is just a credit card!"

San Antonio 附近也有一个类似的地下洞穴,准备有空时也去看看。
http://www.naturalbridgecaverns.com
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Last Hermit
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坐牛黄车/霸王车 Jun 23, 2006

I don't know German at all. So I have no idea what 'Schwarzfahrer' literally means. But if you want to use a term to refer to someone who travels by train without paying any fare, 'train-jumper' is the right one.
 
Quoted from the OED:
train-jumper orig. U.S., one who travels by train without paying the fare; so train-jumping vbl. n.

where vbl n. stands for 'verbal noun'.
 
... See more
I don't know German at all. So I have no idea what 'Schwarzfahrer' literally means. But if you want to use a term to refer to someone who travels by train without paying any fare, 'train-jumper' is the right one.
 
Quoted from the OED:
train-jumper orig. U.S., one who travels by train without paying the fare; so train-jumping vbl. n.

where vbl n. stands for 'verbal noun'.
 

For 'black rider', I have doubts over its validity.


weiwei wrote:

Last Hermit wrote:

did you mean to say 'train-jumper' instead of 'black rider'?



I mean "black rider" for "Schwarzfahrer" in German. Someone is called a "schwarzfahrer" in Germany if he or she takes the train without buying a ticket.

By the way, what's a "train-jumper"? Not a real term, I think. I can imagine what it is, and I definitely do not want to be that.

[Edited at 2006-06-22 17:16]
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Wenjer Leuschel (X)
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About everything "schwarz" Jun 23, 2006

The German word "schwarz" means "black" or "Schwarz" the color black.

"Schwarzfahrer" derives from "schwarzfahren" much the same as "Schwarzarbeit" from "schwarzarbeiten." It means with the word "schwarz" something illegal.

Literally, "Schwarzfahren" as a verbial noun means "black riding" much the same as "train-jumping." Of course, you can jump a bus, too. So, it's only a matter of definition. When you say "train-jumping" you don't mean "train only" pretty much the sam
... See more
The German word "schwarz" means "black" or "Schwarz" the color black.

"Schwarzfahrer" derives from "schwarzfahren" much the same as "Schwarzarbeit" from "schwarzarbeiten." It means with the word "schwarz" something illegal.

Literally, "Schwarzfahren" as a verbial noun means "black riding" much the same as "train-jumping." Of course, you can jump a bus, too. So, it's only a matter of definition. When you say "train-jumping" you don't mean "train only" pretty much the same as when you say "schwarz" you don't mean "black only."

For this reason, it is to be understood that "black riding," "black rider," "black working" and "black works" can be accepted when people happen to know what can be meant by "black" in such contexts just the same way as we use Chinese or some borrowed terms from Japanese, because a language lives and grows or schrinks from time to time. Imagination counts. That's why we know which country is meant by Daqing (大清) or Qingguo (清國).

Hairsplitting? Well, we translators are good at it.


[Edited at 2006-06-23 18:03]
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ysun
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schwarzfahrer - Black rider or fare dodger Jun 23, 2006

From: http://german.berkeley.edu/mg/Filmography/VHSDVDFilmography.php
schwarzfahrer. (English: Black rider or fare dodger)

From: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=1856
Schwarz" is also used to denot
... See more
From: http://german.berkeley.edu/mg/Filmography/VHSDVDFilmography.php
schwarzfahrer. (English: Black rider or fare dodger)

From: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=1856
Schwarz" is also used to denote something illegal, for instance a "Schwarzfahrer" (black rider) is someone using a train without purchasing a ticket

From: http://travel.independent.co.uk/news_and_advice/article341418.ece
GERMAN RAILWAYS has problems of a more mundane nature. The German language has some good words for travel-related concepts: wanderlust, the desire to travel; mitfahrer, to share a ride; and schwarzfahrer, literally, to travel black, the term used for fare-dodging.
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wherestip
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split a hair or two Jun 23, 2006

In English, there's also a term turnstile jumpers. These are the folks that jump over turnstiles in subways to avoid paying for train tickets.

I think train jumpers are used more for hobos that hitch rides on freight trains and wander around the country. But I could be wrong.


 
ysun
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“扒飞车、搞机枪”的铁道游击队? Jun 23, 2006

weiwei wrote:

Last Hermit wrote:

did you mean to say 'train-jumper' instead of 'black rider'?


By the way, what's a "train-jumper"? Not a real term, I think. I can imagine what it is, and I definitely do not want to be that.


"train-jumper" = “扒飞车、搞机枪”的铁道游击队?

[Edited at 2006-06-23 07:14]


 
chance (X)
chance (X)
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蹭车 Jun 23, 2006

蹭车者?

 
Denyce Seow
Denyce Seow  Identity Verified
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Jumping train Jun 23, 2006

Well, "black rider" is definitely not a standard English term. It is a literal translation of "Schwarzfahrer" as what Wenjer has pointed out. That is the reason why I used inverted commas for it.

As for "train jumper/jumping", I think this term is not commonly used. People who jump from trains to commit suicide are also called "train jumpers". Sometimes, what you find in dictionaries can be obsolete or just not commonly used today. What is the use of using bombastic words or phrases
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Well, "black rider" is definitely not a standard English term. It is a literal translation of "Schwarzfahrer" as what Wenjer has pointed out. That is the reason why I used inverted commas for it.

As for "train jumper/jumping", I think this term is not commonly used. People who jump from trains to commit suicide are also called "train jumpers". Sometimes, what you find in dictionaries can be obsolete or just not commonly used today. What is the use of using bombastic words or phrases all the time when it makes the sentence sound awkward or "fake" (note the use of inverted commas)? It feels like someone spends all of his or her time flipping through dictionaries, plucking out the most foreign-looking word and squeezing it into a sentence wherever it fits. Tough luck. Doesn't work like this. Moreover, don't take dictionaries as a bible. There are always exceptions and different usages out there in the REAL WORLD.

[Edited at 2006-06-23 16:58]
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ysun
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Fare dodger Jun 23, 2006

I prefer using 'fare dodger' instead of 'train-jumper' as an explanation for 'Schwarzfahrer'. 在德国坐地铁根本不用跳,因为没有任何障碍物,just walk in and walk out, gently。

美国也可见到一些人在运货火车暂停时跳上火车免费旅行,可能那就属于'train-jumper'。乘客车、地铁不买票的恐怕叫做 'fare dodger'较宜。中国叫做逃票者,也就是chance所说的蹭车者。

虽然我不懂德文,但同意Wenjer的意见,这里的 black means something illegal.

未购车票被查到后仍说“老子就是不买票”的人才叫做“坐霸王车”。

[Edited at 2006-06-23 19:30]


 
ysun
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dictionaries/grammar books 可都是“圣经”呢! Jun 23, 2006



weiwei wrote:
Sometimes, what you find in dictionaries can be obsolete or just not commonly used today. What is the use of using bombastic words or phrases all the time when it makes the sentence sound awkward or "fake" (note the use of inverted commas)? It feels like someone spends all of his or her time flipping through dictionaries, plucking out the most foreign-looking word and squeezing it into a sentence wherever it fits. Tough luck. Doesn't work like this. Moreover, don't take dictionaries as a bible. There are always exceptions and different usages out there in the REAL WORLD.

[Edited at 2006-06-23 16:58]


 
Denyce Seow
Denyce Seow  Identity Verified
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Interesting! Jun 23, 2006

Yueyin Sun wrote:

I prefer using 'fare dodger'.

美国也可见到一些人在运货火车暂停时跳上火车免费旅行,可能那就属于'train-jumper'。乘客车、地铁不买票的恐怕叫做 'fare dodger'较宜。中国叫做逃票者,也就是chance所说的蹭车者。

虽然我不懂德文,但同意wenjer的意见,这里的 black means something illegal.

未购车票被查到后仍说“老子就是不买票”的人才叫做“坐霸王车”。

[Edited at 2006-06-23 17:42]


I definitely agree with you. It's funny with the "坐霸王车" explanation!


 
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