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对法律定义的试译
Thread poster: Seaguest
Seaguest  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:56
English to Chinese
Aug 31, 2005

最近看法律英语,对于西方人在定义法律时的晦涩比较头疼。下面选出三个人的定义试做翻译。请朋友们看看我翻译得是否贴切和通顺。

Cardozo:
Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that is will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.
法律是一种既定的行为原则或规则,使人能以适度的把握预言:当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。

Holmes:
Law is the prhphecies of what the courts will do in fact,and nothing more pretentious are what i mean by the law.
法律是对法庭在实践中将如何作为的预示。其他夸大其词的定义都不是我根据法律所表达的意思。

Max Weber:
An order will be called law if it is externally guaranteed by the probability that coercion(physical or psychological), to bring about conformity or avenge violation, will be applied by a staff of people holding themselves sepcially ready for that purpose.
如果一种秩序获得外界的承诺,为了实现一致性或对侵犯行为予以报复,可能由专人负责以强制(身体上或心理上)手段来实现此一目的,该秩序就被称作法律。


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chica nueva
Local time: 18:56
Chinese to English
Why? Sep 1, 2005

Hi Seaguest

Just wondering why you have posted this here?

Lesley

So sorry, Seaguest, excuse my poor Chinese reading ability, I didn't see your introduction. It's very clear.

[Edited at 2005-09-01 11:06]


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Seaguest  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:56
English to Chinese
TOPIC STARTER
I hope to know more Sep 1, 2005

Lesley McLachlan wrote:

Hi Seaguest

Just wondering why you have posted this here?

Lesley


Well, I think there are many exerts here. I want to benefit from their instructions and discussions. By the way, I read your reply in my another post. Thanks for your enthusiastic direction. I will try it.


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chica nueva
Local time: 18:56
Chinese to English
Some suggestions, just on understanding (精读), not on translation. Sep 1, 2005

The sentences are long and challenging to translate - should be interesting.

Cardozo:
Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that is will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.
法律是一种既定的行为原则或规则,使人能以适度的把握预言:当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。

-> 'principle' 'rule of conduct'= 2 separate terms. 'so established as to' = 'established in such a way that it will', 'that is will be enforced' should be 'that it will be enforced' Suggest 法律是一个established so as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged 的一个principle or rule of conduct.


Holmes:
Law is the prophecies of what the courts will do in fact,and nothing more pretentious are what i mean by the law.
法律是对法庭在实践中将如何作为的预示。其他夸大其词的定义都不是我根据法律所表达的意思。The English seems a little mangled...

Max Weber:
An order will be called law if it is externally guaranteed by the probability that coercion(physical or psychological), to bring about conformity or avenge violation, will be applied by a staff of people holding themselves sepcially ready for that purpose.
如果一种秩序获得外界的承诺,为了实现一致性或对侵犯行为予以报复,可能由专人负责以强制(身体上或心理上)手段来实现此一目的,该秩序就被称作法律。order might be 命令. externally guaranteed by the probability that something will happen - probability = likelihood = 可能性?

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/798161

[Edited at 2005-09-02 22:02]

[Edited at 2005-09-02 22:03]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:56
Chinese to English
+ ...
Accuracy of original Sep 1, 2005

To discuss the meaning of a quotation, I think it is important to get the quote right first. Occasionally, even the placement of a comma could make a difference in the interpretation of a sentence, as could be seen by the second example you cited.

***************************************************************

http://www4.ncsu.edu:8030/~twallace/Gullette.pdf

Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.

http://www.law.uga.edu/~bodansky/courses/Perspectives/Class02-Holmes.html

The prophecies of what the courts will do in fact, and nothing more pretentious, are what I mean by the law.

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/111/111lect04.htm

Law, legal rules, and order exist if they are externally guaranteed by the probability of coercion (physical or psychological) to bring about conformity or avenge violation, and is applied by a staff of people holding themselves specially ready for that purpose.


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Seaguest  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:56
English to Chinese
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for your corrections Sep 1, 2005

Lesley McLachlan wrote:

The sentences are long and challenging to translate - should be interesting.

Cardozo:
Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that is will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.
法律是一种既定的行为原则或规则,使人能以适度的把握预言:当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。

-> 'principle' 'rule of conduct'= 2 separate terms. 'so established as to' = 'established in such a way that it will', 'that is will be enforced' should be 'that it will be enforced' Suggest 法律是一个established so as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged 的一个principle or rule of conduct.


Holmes:
Law is the prophecies of what the courts will do in fact,and nothing more pretentious are what i mean by the law.
法律是对法庭在实践中将如何作为的预示。其他夸大其词的定义都不是我根据法律所表达的意思。The English seems a little mangled...

Max Weber:
An order will be called law if it is externally guaranteed by the probability that coercion(physical or psychological), to bring about conformity or avenge violation, will be applied by a staff of people holding themselves sepcially ready for that purpose.
如果一种秩序获得外界的承诺,为了实现一致性或对侵犯行为予以报复,可能由专人负责以强制(身体上或心理上)手段来实现此一目的,该秩序就被称作法律。order might be 命令. externally guaranteed by the probability that something will happen - probability = likelihood = 可能性?


Thanks for your corrections! In the first definition, "is" should be "it". I made a misspelling when I copied it manually. I realize your meaning, but when I translated the definition, I want it to be readable among Chinese. Perhaps I should translate it into the following form:
法律是一种原则或行为规则,它是按照能使人据以做出某种合理预断的方式制定的:即当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。

I misunderstood the second definiton. the correct origing should be "the prophecies of what the courts will do in fact,and nothing more pretentious are what I mean by the law." The Chinese should be: 法庭事实上将如何作为的预示就是我所谓的法律,不多也不少。

When I translated the third definition, I had difficulty in dealing with the word "probalility". I was uncertain which place is proper for it. In the last, I put it after the second coma in Chinese. I hope you can tell me: how will you deal with the sentence? Thanks!


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Seaguest  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:56
English to Chinese
TOPIC STARTER
谢谢指教! Sep 1, 2005

wherestip wrote:

To discuss the meaning of a quotation, I think it is important to get the quote right first. Occasionally, even the placement of a comma could make a difference in the interpretation of a sentence, as could be seen by the second example you cited.

***************************************************************

http://www4.ncsu.edu:8030/~twallace/Gullette.pdf

Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.

http://www.law.uga.edu/~bodansky/courses/Perspectives/Class02-Holmes.html

The prophecies of what the courts will do in fact, and nothing more pretentious, are what I mean by the law.

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/111/111lect04.htm

Law, legal rules, and order exist if they are externally guaranteed by the probability of coercion (physical or psychological) to bring about conformity or avenge violation, and is applied by a staff of people holding themselves specially ready for that purpose.


衷心感谢您的指正。确实,这几段中均有不同程度的拼写错误。因为我是借助大陆的超星软件阅读的,而超星的文本都是图片格式,必须先抄写然后才能翻译。抄完后没有仔细校对,所以犯下许多不应有的错误。第一句的问题Lesley McLachlan 先生也已指出。我也重新做了改译,请您指正。第二句是在阅读中没有正确理解上下文而犯下的错误,我现在改译为“法庭事实上将如何作为的预示就是我所谓的法律,不多也不少。”。您认为这种翻译是否大体符合原意?

关于第三个定义我想说明一下。第三个定义是马克斯·韦伯的。韦伯是德国人,他的定义显然是从德文翻译成英文的,所以我在网上看到两个版本的译文。我取的是与超星相一致的英译本翻译成汉语的。我也看到您给出的那个译本并做过翻译。感觉比较而言,我抄写的这个英译本相对更绕口些,所以我把这个翻译拿出来请大家品评指导

[Edited at 2005-09-02 00:59]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:56
Chinese to English
+ ...
2nd sentence Sep 1, 2005

Seaguest wrote:

我现在改译为“法庭事实上将如何作为的预示就是我所谓的法律,不多也不少。”。您认为这种翻译是否大体符合原意?



Indeed these quotations are not easy to translate into fluent Chinese that reads well.

Your meaning is correct for the 2nd quote, but perhaps the original could be adhered to a bit more this way:

"The prophecies of what the courts will do in fact, and nothing more pretentious, are what I mean by the law."

预言法庭在实践中怎样裁决, 而并非堆砌(更为)浮华的词藻, 是我对法律的定义.

I changed the noun "prophecies" into a verb, which some might question as inappropriate, BTW


[Edited at 2005-09-01 23:15]


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Seaguest  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:56
English to Chinese
TOPIC STARTER
受益匪浅 Sep 2, 2005

wherestip wrote:

Seaguest wrote:

我现在改译为“法庭事实上将如何作为的预示就是我所谓的法律,不多也不少。”。您认为这种翻译是否大体符合原意?



Indeed these quotations are not easy to translate into fluent Chinese that reads well.

Your meaning is correct for the 2nd quote, but perhaps the original could be adhered to a bit more this way:

"The prophecies of what the courts will do in fact, and nothing more pretentious, are what I mean by the law."

预言法庭在实践中怎样裁决, 而并非堆砌(更为)浮华的词藻, 是我对法律的定义.

I changed the noun "prophecies" into a verb, which some might question as inappropriate, BTW


[Edited at 2005-09-01 23:15]


非常棒的翻译!令人受益匪浅!谢谢您。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:56
Chinese to English
+ ...
不谢 Sep 2, 2005

Seaguest wrote:

...谢谢您。



You're welcome, Seaguest. Your understanding of English is very good, which is half the battle. The other half of putting it into fluent Chinese is the harder part IMHO. I'm not really good at it, especially compared to some of the translation experts here.

[Edited at 2005-09-02 18:59]


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Shang
China
Local time: 14:56
English to Chinese
我的建议 Sep 3, 2005

Seaguest wrote:

最近看法律英语,对于西方人在定义法律时的晦涩比较头疼。下面选出三个人的定义试做翻译。请朋友们看看我翻译得是否贴切和通顺。



英美法律文件晦涩难懂是人所共知的事实,据说很多英美人士也读不懂什么意思。为此,国会山那帮成天耍嘴皮子的人开始嚷嚷要改革法律文体。

我认为除非你有法律教育背景,否则最好不要一上来就弄这个东西。首先,你熟悉法律文体得花许多时间,你最终得到的收获可能与付出的劳动不成比例。其次,一开始就翻译这么艰深的东西不容易做好,很容易让人心灰意冷。

建议你在翻译过程中慢慢接触这类文体,比如每一本使用手册上都有一段Legal Notice之类的东西,翻译多了自然就顺手了。


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chica nueva
Local time: 18:56
Chinese to English
Is this the Max Weber quote? Sep 4, 2005

迈向一种法律的社会理论——马克斯·韦伯法律思想研究·第三章 - [ Translate this page ]
迈向一种法律的社会理论——马克斯·韦伯法律思想研究·第三章. 作者郑戈 2004-04-01
点击378次 ... (b).法律:为了保障人们遵守它或者是对违反它的行为进行惩罚,有一群
专职人员来维持进行(身体或心理)强制的可能性,从而赋予它一种外在的保障。[10] 韦伯 ...
www.lawintsinghua.com/content/content.asp?id=585 - 40k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.lawintsinghua.com ]


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chica nueva
Local time: 18:56
Chinese to English
Here is the Holmes... Sep 4, 2005

中国私法网--法律的道路(一) - [ Translate this page ]
说明:本文乃陈绪纲先生所翻译的霍姆斯之《法律的道路》。霍姆斯乃美国最重要的法官
之一。令人遗憾的是,国内对霍姆斯著作的 ... 对于法庭将会如何行事的预测,而不是别的
什么更为矫饰造作的东西,正是我所称的法律。 再拿一个被一般认为是法律所包含的最 ...
www.privatelaw.com.cn/new2004/ sxwd/..%5Cshtml%5C20040518-232150.htm - 45k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

中国律师网互动社区: 霍姆斯:法律的道路 - [ Translate this page ]
法律的道路霍姆斯当我们研究法律的时候,我们不是在研究一个神秘莫测的事物,而是在
研究一行众所周知的职业。 ... 对于法庭将会如何行事的预测,而不是别的什么更为矫饰
造作的东西,正是我所称的法律。 再拿一个被一般认为是法律所包含的最宽泛的概念来 ...
www.acla.org.cn/forum/showflat. php?Cat=&Number=547989&Main=547989 - 93k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages


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Last Hermit
Local time: 14:56
Chinese to English
+ ...
也来凑凑热闹 Sep 4, 2005

  法律乃行为之准则或法则,其不可逆转性足以用合理之确切性(确凿无疑地)鉴定某预测之真实。其权威性一旦受到挑战,则法庭必定强制执行其意旨。

Seaguest wrote:

Cardozo:
Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.
法律是一种既定的行为原则或规则,使人能以适度的把握预言:当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。


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Seaguest  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:56
English to Chinese
TOPIC STARTER
我想强化理解和表达能力 Sep 4, 2005

Shang wrote:

Seaguest wrote:

最近看法律英语,对于西方人在定义法律时的晦涩比较头疼。下面选出三个人的定义试做翻译。请朋友们看看我翻译得是否贴切和通顺。



英美法律文件晦涩难懂是人所共知的事实,据说很多英美人士也读不懂什么意思。为此,国会山那帮成天耍嘴皮子的人开始嚷嚷要改革法律文体。

我认为除非你有法律教育背景,否则最好不要一上来就弄这个东西。首先,你熟悉法律文体得花许多时间,你最终得到的收获可能与付出的劳动不成比例。其次,一开始就翻译这么艰深的东西不容易做好,很容易让人心灰意冷。

建议你在翻译过程中慢慢接触这类文体,比如每一本使用手册上都有一段Legal Notice之类的东西,翻译多了自然就顺手了。


谢谢Shang先生的指教。我有一定的法律基础,但大学里学到的法律知识在理解英美法律文化和表达时还是感觉很吃力。我现在还没确定好向哪个方向发展。翻译一些绕口的句子只是想作为一种理解和表达的训练。我感觉,理解是翻译的基础。意思充分理解了,在表达方面自然会轻松顺畅得多。而反过来,如果表达别扭,肯定与对文本的理解不到位有一定的关系。所以我希望能借助翻译一些艰深的句子,强化自己对英语原意的理解和转化。希望在这方面能得到大家的指教!


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