| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Base on the "两岸三通" concept, should Simplified & Traditional Chinese be unified? if yes, how? Thread poster: Summit
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Kevin Yang 
Local time: 23:32
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
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| I am "SIMPLY" puzzled. | Jul 26, 2002 |
Hi, Summit,
I hope you made your point. Unfortunately, I am confused about what exactly you are trying to say here.
Quote:
On 2002-07-25 04:42, Summit wrote:
有挟洋以自重之嫌
Kevin\'s Comment:
Not exactly! Just for your information, I am 100% Chinese from the mainland China and I am also an American citizen. Again, your comment does n... See more Hi, Summit,
I hope you made your point. Unfortunately, I am confused about what exactly you are trying to say here.
Quote:
On 2002-07-25 04:42, Summit wrote:
有挟洋以自重之嫌
Kevin\'s Comment:
Not exactly! Just for your information, I am 100% Chinese from the mainland China and I am also an American citizen. Again, your comment does not fit me well. Perhaps you can save such a nice \"hat\" for another occasion.
Quote:
summit\'s direct quote from Kevin Yang\'s previous statement:
As I look at this matter, each Chinese character was created for the purpose of communication, and its communication function is the foremost reason that we keep alive those we use often, and abandon those that are no longer in use. If these symbols, such as Chinese characters, created for communication cannot EFFICIENTLY fulfill their job in facilitating communication, it is the time to make a change, and the change comes sooner will be better then later.
Kevin\'s comment:
Good job in making this direct quote of my words! That was, still is and will certainly be my belief.
Quote:
On 2002-07-25 04:42, Summit wrote:
Without characters? no communication? how about verbal, gesture as far as body language can go? If for communication purpose, there is no need for writing, in you pinion. 字以载意,文以载道
Furthermore, one can\'t by-pass the function of writing is for the purpose of recording human activities & events as well. (even 甲骨文, the oracles). Thus, the function of word is to preserve (not voices) culture. (prior to the invention of record machine)
Kevin\'s comment:
Bad job in paraphrasing my words and point. Recommendation: Just make direct quote in future, and read my words at least 3 times before presenting your argument.I found your above writing twisted my point. By the way, I would love to discuss more about communication with you, I got my Master\'s Degree in Speech Communication in 1991. I am sure we would have a lot to talk about.
Enjoy the nice summer!
Kevin
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-07-27 19:08 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Summit
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
Dear Mr. Xiaoping Fu
Your comments is well said, perceived and appreciated. Thanks. In addition, Mr. Kevin Yang did a very nice job in respond to your comments. \"
*** quote from Mr. Kevin Yang
Quote:小平的评论如行云流水，象一首散文诗，同时颇具说服力\"
Quote:
汉字是一个符号�
... See more Dear Mr. Xiaoping Fu
Your comments is well said, perceived and appreciated. Thanks. In addition, Mr. Kevin Yang did a very nice job in respond to your comments. \"
*** quote from Mr. Kevin Yang
Quote:小平的评论如行云流水，象一首散文诗，同时颇具说服力\"
Quote:
汉字是一个符号体系，基本功能是记录和传递语言与思想。本身确无美丑可言。但是由于汉字的特殊结构，由于其象形、会意等特性，它比其他更抽象的表音符号体系，能够载寓更多的文化信息和审美意趣。就象一部车，容量很大。至于真正有多少货色，那是看书人、写字人的事。
象形，形声，转注，假借 are whatI learned of, the 4 common methods in the creation and adaptation of the Chinese characters. （有边读边，无边唸中间）You also put it in a very instructive way:
Quote:
由于其象形、会意等特性，它比其他更抽象的表音符号体系，能够载寓更多的文化信息和审美意趣
If one simplified it, how can it carry as much message as it supposed to?
i.e.: 干（甘}先生， 对着干（幹）it might not be the best example, if time permitted, I don\'t mind to collect all those confusion that simplified Chinese did arouse.
Also, why Westerner never think of to simplified their language? So far I only know, neighbor can be neighbour....
All words has so call: the root, 字根, from it, it will develope into hundreds of words that can be more delicately and appropriately associate with it, to furtherly describe the feeling, meaning in more details. To simplify it backs to its 字根， I wonder we might loose that feeling.
For political sakes (as I have no choice now), in the past 50 years, how many revolutions did Chineses go through? I even start wondering, are all mainland Chineses are born to be a revolutionist? 百花齐鸣，大练钢，大跃进，人民公社（油票，粮票。。）大寨，上山下乡，文革，三个教条。。。。I used to put the blame on CCP, but not now. I remember Ms. BBW once mention, the writing subject of her admission exam, mine was: \"风俗之厚薄繋乎一二人心之所向也“
i am short of time, will be continued.. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Evolution of western languages??? | Jul 27, 2002 |
Quote:
Also, why Westerner never think of to simplified their language? So far I only know, neighbor can be neighbour....
On this issue, I think Esperanto is an example of \"creating a universal language\". However, it\'s still heavily Latin-based and didn\'t make it.
On the other hand, I think the different spelling systems used in Europe and the United States do not count for lang... See more Quote:
Also, why Westerner never think of to simplified their language? So far I only know, neighbor can be neighbour....
On this issue, I think Esperanto is an example of \"creating a universal language\". However, it\'s still heavily Latin-based and didn\'t make it.
On the other hand, I think the different spelling systems used in Europe and the United States do not count for language evolution. In UK, we use \"neighbour\" and in the States we use \"neighbor\".
Seeing this idea of language simplification reminds me of the following joke:
--------------------------------
Europe English
The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU rather than German which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty\'s Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five year phase-in plan that would be known as \"Euro-English\".
In the first year, \"s\" will replace the soft \"c\". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard \"c\" will be dropped in favour of the \"k\". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have 1 less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome \"ph\" will be replaced with \"f\". This will make words like \"fotograf\" 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be ekspekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent \"e\"s in the language is disgraseful, and they should go away.
By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing \"th\" with \"z\" and \"w\" with \"v\". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary \"o\" kan be dropd from vords kontaining \"ou\" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru! And zen world!
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| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 23:32
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
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| Ha...ha...ha..., "Ze drem vil finali kum tru!" | Jul 27, 2002 |
Li-chuan,
I cannot thank you enough for telling us this joke. I laughed so hard that I almost fell off my chair. I had not laughed this laud for a long time. It is very funny, witty, yet bitter in a British way.
As you agree, the American English has made many changes to simplify the word spelling comparing with the British English. The simplified American spelling works just fine and did not cause any confusion in communication. I certainly believe su... See more Li-chuan,
I cannot thank you enough for telling us this joke. I laughed so hard that I almost fell off my chair. I had not laughed this laud for a long time. It is very funny, witty, yet bitter in a British way.
As you agree, the American English has made many changes to simplify the word spelling comparing with the British English. The simplified American spelling works just fine and did not cause any confusion in communication. I certainly believe such simplification trend in American English will continue its course in the years to come.
To simplify the writing symbols is a desire and trend all over the world. Unfortunately, its pace and timing often time are influenced by politics. I think your joke cited us an extreme example, but it suggests some changes making good sense to me as a native Chinese speaker. It might also lead into some possible changes, because German and English are sharing the same root. Did you notice that there are some Japanese kanji characters and usages are accepted and used in the mainland China (i.e. 干部), even though Japanese and Chinese are not from the same language family?
I think what makes a language vital and popular is to make the language easy to remember and use by as many people as possible. I dream to see the day to come when Chinese language can be so popular as English in the world. I think it could happen because Chinese language has many advantages over English, such as much simpler in grammar. Am I ambitious? You bet! I am \"simply\" looking at a bigger picture. We should overcome the psychological barrier that the Chinese language is ONLY created for the sake of the Chinese people. We should begin to think that the Chinese language is for the people all over the world. To speed up such process and have this day come sooner, it is inevitable to make necessary changes in the Chinese writing system. So \"Ze drem vil finali kum tru!\" 
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-07-27 17:13 ] ▲ Collapse
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Chinoise
Local time: 03:32
English to Chinese
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Quote:After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru! And zen world!
Quote:We should begin to think that the Chinese language is for the people all over the world. To speed up such process and have this day come sooner, it is inevitable to m ... See more
| | | | Summit
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | 剖腹产子 or read my lips? 众矢之的或是过街老鼠？ | Jul 28, 2002 |
Dear Kevin:
As a Chinese having being a US citizen for 17 years got anything to do with this issue?
Quote:
Kevin\'s Comment:
Not exactly! Just for your information, I am 100% Chinese from the mainland China and I am also an American citizen. Again, your comment does not fit me well. Perhaps you can save such a nice \"hat\" for another occasion.
you mentioned it... See more Dear Kevin:
As a Chinese having being a US citizen for 17 years got anything to do with this issue?
Quote:
Kevin\'s Comment:
Not exactly! Just for your information, I am 100% Chinese from the mainland China and I am also an American citizen. Again, your comment does not fit me well. Perhaps you can save such a nice \"hat\" for another occasion.
you mentioned it, \"hat\"。 Is it not the creation of you, or at least, the revolutinist\'s product? 带高帽？Is this what you mean?
Quote:
Kevin\'s comment:
Good job in making this direct quote of my words! That was, still is and will certainly be my belief.
On 2002-07-25 04:42, Summit wrote:
Without characters? no communication? how about verbal, gesture as far as body language can go? If for communication purpose, there is no need for writing, in you pinion. 字以载意,文以载道
Furthermore, one can\'t by-pass the function of writing is for the purpose of recording human activities & events as well. (even 甲骨文, the oracles). Thus, the function of word is to preserve (not voices) culture. (prior to the invention of record machine)
Kevin\'s comment:
Bad job in paraphrasing my words and point. Recommendation: Just make direct quote in future, and read my words at least 3 times before presenting your argument.I found your above writing twisted my point. By the way, I would love to discuss more about communication with you, I got my Master\'s Degree in Speech Communication in 1991. I am sure we would have a lot to talk about.
Enjoy the nice summer!
Kevin
[/quote]
How about Intra-Personal communication?
My sepcial thanks to
Mr. Bin Li: for his great effort in helping us learning the stages of Chinese Simpimfication
Mr. Kevin Yang: for his first respond to my Touchy question.
Mr. Xiaoping Fu, for his 行云流水
Ms. Li-Chuan, the issue of English simplification with many laughs.
summit
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| | | | Summit
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | It's all in the sprit | Jul 28, 2002 |
Thanks to all participants. I myself did learn a lot. Just like Kevin, can\'t help but to laughh at \"how narrowed minded am I\". How small is the globe in comparison to our minds vision.
Speical thanks to Li-Chuan
| | | | Summit
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | It's all in the sprit | Jul 28, 2002 |
Thanks to all participants. I myself did learn a lot. Just like Kevin, can\'t help but to laughh at \"how narrowed minded am I\". How small is the globe in comparison to our minds vision.
Speical thanks to Li-Chuan
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Kevin Yang
Local time: 23:32
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
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| Did you have a senior moment? | Jul 30, 2002 |
Hi, Summit,
1. You were asking me \"As a Chinese having being a US citizen for 17 years got anything to do with this issue?\" I surprised you would ask such a question. I wonder if you had a \"senior moment\". Let me help you to bring your memory back if I can.
Last week, I was very pleased to read Brian Rutland\'s comment about Chinese character simplification and his honest opinion on this issue as a foreigner. I wrote my encouraging comment and gave ... See more Hi, Summit,
1. You were asking me \"As a Chinese having being a US citizen for 17 years got anything to do with this issue?\" I surprised you would ask such a question. I wonder if you had a \"senior moment\". Let me help you to bring your memory back if I can.
Last week, I was very pleased to read Brian Rutland\'s comment about Chinese character simplification and his honest opinion on this issue as a foreigner. I wrote my encouraging comment and gave him my positive support. Then, you launched your bitter attack on both Brian and me. This is what you wrote on 2002-07-25 04:42 in responding to my comment: \"有挟洋以自重之嫌.\" I found it was absolutely ridiculous. The following was my immediate comment:
Quote:
Not exactly! Just for your information, I am 100% Chinese from the mainland China and I am also an American citizen. Again, your comment does not fit me well. Perhaps you can save such a nice \"hat\" for another occasion.
Do you remember now? I certainly hope so.
2. You were asking me \"How about Intra-Personal communication?\" I wonder why you asked. Do you need a Communication Class 101? I got my skills in both intra-personal communication and inter-personal communication in 1991. I wonder if you can show me yours. I am sure that anyone who can read through all the messages posted in this folder will be able to form his or her objective opinion.
Be a happy camper!
Kevin
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-07-30 07:25 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Summit
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
No matter what, let the history speak for itself. As a moderator in Chinese forum, you should appreciate me as some one who dare to raise such a \"touchy\" & \"sensitive\" subject in you domain not to mention to challenge your authority.
I simply wish to end this issue as you first mentioned: it is a very political sensitive issue. To me, it is simply a issue needing subject to majority rule.
Best regard
Summit
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 23:32
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I do appreciate your different opinion! | Aug 6, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-08-04 20:17, Summit wrote:
No matter what, let the history speak for itself. As a moderator in Chinese forum, you should appreciate me as some one who dare to raise such a \"touchy\" & \"sensitive\" subject in you domain not to mention to challenge your authority.
I simply wish to end this issue as you first mentioned: it is a very political sensitive issue. To me, it is simply a issue needing su
... See more Quote:
On 2002-08-04 20:17, Summit wrote:
No matter what, let the history speak for itself. As a moderator in Chinese forum, you should appreciate me as some one who dare to raise such a \"touchy\" & \"sensitive\" subject in you domain not to mention to challenge your authority.
I simply wish to end this issue as you first mentioned: it is a very political sensitive issue. To me, it is simply a issue needing subject to majority rule.
Best regard
Summit
Dear Summit,
I thought I made it very clear to you that I do appreciate that you could offer us your different opinions. I think the course got changed a bit when you did not appreciate the opinions presented by Brian and me. I think at certain point you were trying to challenge our qualifications and understandings to this issue.
By the way, this forum is for everyone who is interested in sharing thoughts. It is NOT my \"domain\". I do not have any authority over it. I am simply a regular advocator and translator.
I hope you can continuously share with us your thoughts.
Kevin
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-08-06 02:46 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Summit
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
As the initiator of this forum, I sincerely appreciate your interests in this subject. Personally, i do feel regret that this issue has been so far redir? or diverted to a political issue.
I would really like to re-address the issue:
The issue is not: which is better
The issue is:
1.Should GB & Big5, Simplied & Traditional Chinese be unified or standardized.
2. If \"yes\" then, \"how\"
Since we have most of the t... See more As the initiator of this forum, I sincerely appreciate your interests in this subject. Personally, i do feel regret that this issue has been so far redir? or diverted to a political issue.
I would really like to re-address the issue:
The issue is not: which is better
The issue is:
1.Should GB & Big5, Simplied & Traditional Chinese be unified or standardized.
2. If \"yes\" then, \"how\"
Since we have most of the talented translators, linguists here on this platform, why not share all your precious opinion here which might eventually contribute to the make of a unified Chinese system for generation to come.
Again, thanks
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Chinoise
Local time: 03:32
English to Chinese
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| "English forum" or "Chinese forum"? | Sep 6, 2002 |
Quote:Since we have most of the talented translators, linguists here on this platform, why not share all your precious opinion here which might eventually contribute to the make of a unified Chinese system for generation to come.
If Chinese (not English) is mostly used in this Chinese forum , I bet that more Chinese language professionals will be willing to drop by and talk. Otherwise,... See more Quote:Since we have most of the talented translators, linguists here on this platform, why not share all your precious opinion here which might eventually contribute to the make of a unified Chinese system for generation to come.
If Chinese (not English) is mostly used in this Chinese forum , I bet that more Chinese language professionals will be willing to drop by and talk. Otherwise, they would rather go to other genuine English forums(Translator resources, Being independent,Translator Coop, Money matters, etc.)to improve their English.
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| | | | Xiaoping Fu
Canada
Local time: 23:32
Chinese to English
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下面这些意见，我在另一个 topic 中贴过。后来发现与这个topic关系更直接，再贴一次。如果给大家带来不便，请原谅。
“对着干”这个例子，我看见好多次了。很多大陆的朋友不知道，这是台湾人嘲讽 ( 未必有恶意 ) 大陆语言的例子，和简体繁体的问题关系不大，但确实折射出两岸隔绝所造成的语言差别。“幹”这个字，在台湾口语中，是某个脏字的委婉用字�... See more 下面这些意见，我在另一个 topic 中贴过。后来发现与这个topic关系更直接，再贴一次。如果给大家带来不便，请原谅。
“对着干”这个例子，我看见好多次了。很多大陆的朋友不知道，这是台湾人嘲讽 ( 未必有恶意 ) 大陆语言的例子，和简体繁体的问题关系不大，但确实折射出两岸隔绝所造成的语言差别。“幹”这个字，在台湾口语中，是某个脏字的委婉用字，相当于英语中F字头的那个字。所以，“夫妻老是对着干”这句话，在大陆人听来很平常，在台湾人听来就极不顺耳。拿出来做笑话讲，台湾人觉得很可笑，大陆人觉得如入五里云雾。其实，“干”字在大陆也有同样的用法，只是，无论使用范围，还是地域范围，都很有局限, 不象在台湾那样普遍。最重要的区别是，在大陆，“干”字不是骂人话。在骂人或表达强烈情绪时，大陆人直接用那个脏字。我第一次上台湾的网站时，看到有个网友打出一个“幹”字，加一个惊叹号，以为是笔误。后来才知道，他是在骂人。
不过，我觉得这些差别并不构成太大的问题。交往的门户一打开，语言上的位差很快就流平了。大陆人现在慢慢习惯读繁体书报，经常去大陆的台湾人也开始习惯简体字。我主张大陆人写简认繁，台湾人写繁认简。其实，大陆很多人，包括我们这里的许多同行，都是写简认繁。我们的前辈，譬如说65岁以上的人，很多是写繁认简。而台湾的许多朋友，与大陆有较多交往的，很多都可以写繁认简。台湾的很多语词，现在在大陆被广为接受，而大陆的很多语词，也悄悄地渗入了台湾的媒体和百姓的生活。语言和文字在这种交互使用中磨合，逐步形成约定俗成的规范。最后再由文化机构整理确定。
在文字的问题上，现在不可能也不需要制订统一标准。重点是两岸人民要互相交往，不要互相隔绝；要互相理解，不要互相猜忌；要互相欣赏，不要互相轻蔑；要互相学习，不要互相诋毁；要互相帮助，不要互相打击。我说的不是政治，不是外交，是人与人之间的交往。我们提出了这个问题，就从我们自己开始。我们大家在这里相遇，是为了在专业上互相帮助。没有预设的前提 ( 请原谅我借用台湾政坛的流行语 )，没有专业之外的预设立场。只有一个共同点，我们都是做汉语语言文字工作的。我们热爱汉语，因为它美丽，也因为它是我们的衣食之源。如果我们在这里不能以友善的、相互尊重的态度讨论问题，动不动就扯出政治纷争，甚至用恶毒的语言攻击不同意见者，那还侈谈什么文字的统一？
一言以蔽之，别“对着干”！
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-09-13 07:46 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Summit
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | Minority's Report (in reply to BBW) | Sep 10, 2002 |
Read clearly but thought differently. The truth is, I have not found any Taiwanese peer here on this plateform, let it be. (how sad), Like you said, they might all gone to other palteforms as you recommended it.
By all means, I would be another deserter of this forum.
Wish you all well
regards
summit
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Base on the "两岸三通" concept, should Simplified & Traditional Chinese be unified? if yes, how? | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
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