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Looking forward to a more healthy environment in KudoZ discussion
Thread poster: Libin PhD
Libin PhD  Identity Verified
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Oct 21, 2002

To BBW,linguist,



If you could point out why an answer is incorrect and give the correct answer, it will be much more appreciated by others. I always believe that when we discuss an answer to a question here, we should always focus on the question itself. The discussion should be carried out in a civilized and matter-of-fact way. I do expect you know more about 赛珍珠 than I do as I know I know more than you in science area. However, how do you know that I don\'t know anything about 赛珍珠 or even do not know who she is while the matter of fact is that I read this particular book in its original English in 1986.



No one can guarantee that his/her answer is always right. That is why we usually have several answers to a question. That is the fun part of it and an important source for learning. Even someone gives an incorrect answer, that does not necessarily give anyone else the right to digress and ask whether the answerer knows anything about the subject because all the answers cannot be right at the same time.



I feel you are being too arrogant and aggressive, sometimes rude (令人恶心). Please remember, being arrogant will not get anyone anywhere no matter how knowledgeable he thinks he is.



When I was a graduate student in China in the later 1970\'s and early 80\'s, both my Master\'s and Ph.D. advisors were Academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences. My Ph.D. advisor was Director of Earth Science Division, Chinese Academy of Sciences (中国科学院地学部主任). They were very humble and modest and were respected by many. I think that\'s because the more one knows the more he feels he knows too little.



I refuse to get into any argument with people, still less a vendetta. My purpose of participating in the discussion here is to learn something from other colleagues and help while I can. I joined ProZ when they first started (Membership No. 1934). Previously, I could not afford the time as I worked a full time job at a university and did 110-140 translation projects at the same time annually as a side job. Now, I have decided to work for myself and have more time. So I want to learn more. I am not interested in any translation job offer here and do not bid on any of them. I am already too busy with approximately 250 higher paying projects annually and currently working on a 145,000 word casino website into Traditional Chinese. I am not competing with people for jobs here. So let\'s relax, concentrate on the intellectual part of the discussion and enjoy it.



The above observation was written as a reply to your comments without any animosity. I look forward to more discussion with you and other fellow translators so that we all benefit.



Here is the link to the KudoZ question under discussion:



http://www.proz.com/?sp=h&id=294753



[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-21 01:33 ]


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:58
English to Chinese
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Hi, Dr. Li. Your willingness to answer all the KudoZ questions is greatly appreciated, Oct 21, 2002

however, I had planned to click \"disagree\" in reply to your question. For the sake of showing politeness and friendship, I only clicked \"neutral\", adding \" Sorry for being neutral\". I was respectful and humble, wasn\'t I? As a professional translator and a conscientious ProZ.com member,I really hate to see \"\" be added to ProZ.com glossary as the translation for my favorite writer\'s \"The Good Earth\".



By the way, great thanks to Fu Xiaoping for his excellent answer to this professional question. Thus, I don\'t need to explain.Thanks are also extended to other supporters.





Best regards,



BBW









《黄土地》



--------------------------------------------------

Note added at 2002-10-20 22:11:33 (GMT)

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Huang2 tu3 di4



赛珍珠著





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Note added at 2002-10-20 22:21:35 (GMT)

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赛珍珠是美国女作家,一出生就随父母到中国传教,在中国长大。著有《黄土地(又译大地)》、《儿子们》、《分家》三步向西方介绍中国的作品,并获得诺贝尔文学奖。



她出生于19世纪末,大约死于19700年代。在《中国的今昔》(1972)中,她写道,“我一生到老,从童稚到少女到成年,都属于中国。”



--------------------------------------------------

Note added at 2002-10-20 22:23:25 (GMT)

--------------------------------------------------



我86一到美国时就买了一本原文的\"The Good Earth.\" 至今还在。



Other pros opinions of this response:



neutral BBW,linguist: Do you know who 赛珍珠 is? Sorry for being neutral, Dr. Li.









[by Xiaoping Fu] Oct 20 10:36pm

confidence:



《大地》



赛珍珠是美国女作家,在中国生活三十多年。

《大地》三部曲是她的代表作。她以这部作品获得1938年诺贝尔文学奖。



References:



http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:UJJlPPoMhr4J:china.com.cn/chinese/2002/Oct/219733.htm%20赛珍珠&h









--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other pros opinions of this response:



agree BBW,linguist: Thank you so much!言简意赅.

agree Zhoudan

agree zhiyu liu





[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-21 12:00 ]


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Libin PhD  Identity Verified
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TOPIC STARTER
No, you were not respectful. Oct 21, 2002

No, you were not respectful. Saying \"Sorry for being neutral\" after asking someone whether he knows who 赛珍珠 is adding insult to scorn and only attests to your insincerity. I would not say injury here as I was not injured. You yourself did not accept \"I don\'t mean to be rude\" from Richard while I do feel Richard did not mean to be rude. I can see you got quite excited with the 哈哈哈... It makes me feel that I have not given you enough opportunity to prove I am wrong. You will definitely get more chance at that as I will make mistakes in the future. That\'s for sure.



I wrote a reply to your comments with only one purpose: To help build a healthier environment to promote more discussion and to also get you to join us in the discussion in a more positive way. Otherwise, I would have let it go at that. It should not be so difficult to be friendly with people even they get something wrong or even they criticize you. Just a reminder, only unconfident and insecure people would try to prove how right they are and how wrong others were. Besides, getting into argument with people also spoils our own mood and it is not worth it. So take it easy and let us all be friends. No hard feelings and no one holds grudge. How beautiful that will be!




[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-27 18:42 ]


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:58
English to Chinese
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Pls. read the following: Oct 21, 2002

Quote:
If you could point out why an answer is incorrect and give the correct answer, it will be much more appreciated by others. I always believe that when we discuss an answer to a question here, we should always focus on the question itself. The discussion should be carried out in a civilized and matter-of-fact way. I do expect you know more about 赛珍珠 than I do as I know I know more than you in science area. However, how do you know that I don\'t know anything about 赛珍珠 or even do not know who she is while the matter of fact is that I read this particular book in its original English in 1986.


Hi, Dr. Li. Just before I was giving the right answer, I saw Fu Xiaoping’s answer to which you also agreed later. Yes, you are right. We should focus on the question itself. I asked you whether you knew anything about Pearl S Buck before you added your notes, which I just read and found very enlightening. If you had done this earlier, both of us would have happily avoided posting these posts here. Thanks anyway for showing your good temper and professionalism again.



Quote:
No one can guarantee that his/her answer is always right. That is why we usually have several answers to a question. That is the fun part of it and an important source for learning. Even someone gives an incorrect answer, that does not necessarily give anyone else the right to digress and ask whether the answerer knows anything about the subject because all the answers cannot be right at the same time.


It’s true that no one can be always right. Our views happen to coincide. When I asked if you knew “赛珍珠” in the KudoZ discussion, I was simply asking for help and trying to examine whether what I learned in university was correct. I am so glad to find the affirmative answer below.



Quote:
I feel you are being too arrogant and aggressive, sometimes rude (令人恶心). Please remember, being arrogant will not get anyone anywhere no matter how knowledgeable he thinks he is.


Showing “disagree” by giving a “neutral” followed by “Sorry for being neutral” is really something which should not 令人恶心. If you would like to use this arrogant and rude term to respond to “neutral”s, you will get many “disagree”s in return from others in the future.



Quote:
When I was a graduate student in China in the later 1970\'s and early 80\'s, both my Master\'s and Ph.D. advisors were Academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences. My Ph.D. advisor was Director of Earth Science Division, Chinese Academy of Sciences (中国科学院地学部主任). They were very humble and modest and were respected by many. I think that\'s because the more one knows the more he feels he knows too little.


I absolutely agree with you that all reverend intellectuals look modest and affable. They are kind to their students , but conduct their research with a rigorous approach. Whenever their students make mistakes, they point them out. I am still a student here, so I am only using what I have learned to make known my attitude. Actually, I disagree with you to your answer,as almost everyone in China knows that “The Good Earth” is “大地” , and “黄土地” is the movie directed by Chen Kaige. I know I would be criticized by all my previous distinguished teachers if I rendered \"The Good Earth\" into \"“黄土地”...



Quote:
I refuse to get into any argument with people, still less a vendetta. My purpose of participating in the discussion here is to learn something from other colleagues and help while I can. I joined ProZ when they first started (Membership No. 1934). Previously, I could not afford the time as I worked a full time job at a university and did 110-140 translation projects at the same time annually as a side job. Now, I have decided to work for myself and have more time. So I want to learn more. I am not interested in any translation job offer here and do not bid on any of them. I am already too busy with approximately 250 higher paying projects annually and currently working on a 145,000 word casino website into Traditional Chinese. I am not competing with people for jobs here. So let\'s relax, concentrate on the intellectual part of the discussion and enjoy it.


Yes, we should concentrate on the intellectual part of the discussion. Being a fan of Pearl S. Buck, I would have a lot more to talk about. That’s why I started another thread on literary translation. Suppose many of us have watched . The original novel was also written by her. Enjoy.



Quote:
The above observation was written as a reply to your comments without any animosity. I look forward to more discussion with you and other fellow translators so that we all benefit.



Here is the link to the KudoZ question under discussion:



http://www.proz.com/?sp=h&id=294753




Glad to see an amicable conclusion like this. If this harmonious tie can be maintained in domestic peace in our Chinese forum, I shall be the most loyal one to cultivate all the flowers in this garden —our beautiful Chinese garden. If you would like to talk more with me or us fellow translators in Chinese, just let us know. Are we planning a Chinese powwow, folks?Surely, we are!







[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-21 17:36 ]


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Libin PhD  Identity Verified
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A little clarification. Oct 21, 2002

Quote:


Quote:
I feel you are being too arrogant and aggressive, sometimes rude (令人恶心). Please remember, being arrogant will not get anyone anywhere no matter how knowledgeable he thinks he is.


Showing “disagree” by giving a “neutral” followed by “Sorry for being neutral” is really something which should not 令人恶心. If you would like use this arrogant and rude term to respond to “neutral”s, you will get many “disagree”s in return from others in the future.







Hi Betty, I think you misunderstood me here. I was not saying that \"Sorry for being neutral\" 令人恶心. As I mentioned that you were sometimes rude, I was giving the example you said about some of our fellow translators whose mother tongue is not Chinese. I would not say you 令人恶心 even you put ten disagreements under my answers. That only indicates that you completely disagree with me, which is entirely normal. The reason I felt you overreacted on that particular note is that after I looked at Richard\'s comments, the only thing I found was silly-sounding. To me, silly is the least offending among silly, dumb and stupid. Silly-sounding is even less offending than silly itself. If we add \"kind of\" and \"very\" before these words, you can form \"kind of silly\", \"silly\", \"very silly\". We can do the same thing with the other two words. Silly-sounding is about the least offending among the 10 of them. As I understand it, saying something or someone is silly-sounding is just a friendly way of expressing one\'s disagreement, especially among young people and friends.



Except this misunderstanding here, I think we in fact agree on most other things. So let\'s forget about this and try to answer more questions and agree, neutral and disagree as usual without taking it personally so that we can make the KudoZ area more enjoyable.









[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-21 08:45 ]

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Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:58
English to Chinese
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Let me clarify it... Oct 21, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-10-21 08:32, Libin wrote:

Quote:


Quote:
I feel you are being too arrogant and aggressive, sometimes rude (令人恶心). Please remember, being arrogant will not get anyone anywhere no matter how knowledgeable he thinks he is.


Showing “disagree” by giving a “neutral” followed by “Sorry for being neutral” is really something which should not 令人恶心. If you would like use this arrogant and rude term to respond to “neutral”s, you will get many “disagree”s in return from others in the future.







Hi Betty, I think you misunderstood me here. I was not saying that \"Sorry for being neutral\" 令人恶心. As I mentioned that you were sometimes rude, I was giving the example you said about some of our fellow translators whose mother tongue is not Chinese. I would not say you 令人恶心 even you put ten disagreements under my answers. That only indicates that you completely disagree with me, which is entirely normal. The reason I felt you overreacted on that particular note is that after I looked at Richard\'s comments, the only thing I found was silly-sounding. To me, silly is the least offending among silly, dumb and stupid. Silly-sounding is even less offending than silly itself. If we add \"kind of\" and \"very\" before these words, you can form \"kind of silly\", \"silly\", \"very silly\". We can do the same thing with the other two words. Silly-sounding is about the least offending among the 10 of them. As I understand it, saying something or someone is silly-sounding is just a friendly way of expressing one\'s disagreement, especially among young people and friends.



Except this misunderstanding here, I think we in fact agree on most other things. So let\'s forget about this and try to answer more questions and agree, neutral and disagree as usual without taking it personally so that we can make the KudoZ area more enjoyable.









[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-21 08:45 ]



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Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:58
English to Chinese
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Let me clarify it... Oct 21, 2002

Quote:
Hi Betty, I think you misunderstood me here. I was not saying that \"Sorry for being neutral\" 令人恶心”. As I mentioned that you were sometimes rude, I was giving the example you said about some of our fellow translators whose mother tongue is not Chinese. I would not say you 令人恶心 even you put ten disagreements under my answers. That only indicates that you completely disagree with me, which is entirely normal.


OK, now I am in relief. That at least assures me that you don’t care about what I asked and the “neutral” I gave to you.” Normally, I hate to give anyone a “disagree”. Therefore, if you won’t feel 恶心 when you see me” putting ten disagreements under your answers”, everyone else would feel 恶心. I am just joking. I am far from being that mean. That’s guaranteed.



Quote:
The reason I felt you overreacted on that particular note is that after I looked at Richard\'s comments, the only thing I found was silly-sounding. To me, silly is the least offending among silly, dumb and stupid. Silly-sounding is even less offending than silly itself. If we add \"kind of\" and \"very\" before these words, you can form \"kind of silly\", \"silly\", \"very silly\". We can do the same thing with the other two words. Silly-sounding is about the least offending among the 10 of them. As I understand it, saying something or someone is silly-sounding is just a friendly way of expressing one\'s disagreement, especially among young people and friends.


“Silly-sounding” sounds cool to me. What made me sick was not this tiny silly thing at all. Go back and enjoy, Dr. Li. It’s a pity there is no BBB here, 哈哈哈...



Quote:
Except this misunderstanding here, I think we in fact agree on most other things. So let\'s forget about this and try to answer more questions and agree, neutral and disagree as usual without taking it personally so that we can make the KudoZ area more enjoyable.


Absolutely.



Glad to see an amicable conclusion like this. If this harmonious tie can be maintained in domestic peace in our Chinese forum, I shall be the most loyal one to cultivate all the flowers in this garden ¡ªour beautiful Chinese garden. If you would like to talk more with me or us fellow translators in Chinese, just let us know. Aren\'t we planning a Chinese powwow, folks?













[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-21 17:33 ]


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:58
Member (2003)
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What matters is the presentation of disagreement. Oct 21, 2002

Dear Bin Li and Betty,



I have been reading the messages posted by both of you in the Chinese Forum in the last couple days. First of all, thank you very much for choosing the Chinese Forum as a place to present issues and find solutions. Unfortunately, I begin to notice that when an issue is discussed here, many translators became, uh, let me put it as mild as I can, short of opinions. I hope there are more translators can soon understand that it is NOT a matter of you want to share your opinion with other here or stay out of trouble, it is, as how I see it, more or less if you have the integrity to contribute your share of responsibility to establish this \"Virtual culture\"(Note Well: The expression \"Virtual culture\"is created by Kevin Yang) at this site. If we had a thorough discussion earlier and everyone can speak out in the previous cases, this case might not happen like this. Please always remember silence = tolerance = acceptance = reoccurrence.



The case you presented here looks very familiar to me and our readers in the Chinese Forum. This is because that there are totally three similar cases so far have been discussed here in roll within one month. I am pleased to see the discussion here have been carried out in a professional and rational manner. I believe that by simply presenting the case here has already fulfilled half way of the goal to bring education to others and learn to modify our behaviors.



After participated in the discussions in all three similar cases, I think there is one VERY IMPORTANT thing that I should point out here, that is, the problem throughout these three cases is NOT whether you grade other people\'s proposed answer \"Disagree\"or \"Neutral\", the real problem is HOW you present your opinion. The presentation of your disagreement itself matters. It shows your integrity, professionalism and knowledge level. In the case that involves yangyg and me, it was NOT AT ALL that I was offended by his \"Disagree\" grading. It was TOTALLY because the way he presented his argument which carried an attitude with overacting and over-confidence based on the very limited context provided by the asker. I still wonder when the word \"possibilities\" should only be translated as \"business opportunities.\" It is incredibly absurd indeed, and is mind-boggling to this date that he thinks he was so right and I was so wrong in this case.



I cannot help but noticed that Betty was in two of three cases, and had the opportunity to play a different role in each case. Since Betty has been at both ends so far, I am sure Betty would have a better understanding on this issue now. Let us all remember, what matters is the presentation of your opinions. Let alone the translation itself and supporting reference speak. That is a healthier atmosphere in discussion as far as how I look at it. By the way, when you quote any reference online or from book and use it as your proposed answer, that means you are validating the information in your quote, and attached your approval to it. So be very careful on that, too.



Let us look at the positive side. I think everyone who participates in the activities at ProZ.com has the passion and enthusiasm in pursuing the art of translation. It is definitely appropriate to modify our behaviors and address any issues along with the discussions. If we all can contribute each of our own share of responsibility to define and build the VURTUAL CULTURE here, we will soon have an acceptable code to follow, and the more pleasant things will happen to us along with it everyday.



Cheers!



[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-21 21:13 ]


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