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Let's Agree to Disagree
Thread poster: Denyce Seow

Denyce Seow  Identity Verified
Singapore
Local time: 16:44
Member (2004)
Chinese to English
Nov 1, 2006






After you have read this article, I hope you can also share your thoughts or give more suggestions. Of course, you can also disagree with some of the points above. Remember: let's agree to disagree.




[Edited at 2006-11-01 23:07]


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Zhoudan  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:44
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Sure Nov 2, 2006

I agree to disagree.

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Shang
China
Local time: 16:44
English to Chinese
有的人不能接受反对意见 Nov 2, 2006

有的人不能接受反对意见,一旦你disagree或neutral,他/她会跟你理论半天,你不被他/她气死也要被烦死。上个月就遇到这样的事情。作为翻译,这实在是很可悲的事情。

无论你的水平多么高,都会有翻译/理解错误的时候。别人给你指出来,并不说明你不行,只是每个人从不同的角度看问题会有不同的结果罢了,人家说错了一笑了之,说对了就接受,犯不着没完没了地证明自己是对的。说到底就是死要面子。


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Inga Jakobi  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:44
Member (2006)
Chinese to German
+ ...
Always be careful... Nov 2, 2006

...when giving comments to persons you don't know. I also agree to disagree, and IMO it is very important that you necer use ironic comments, that people you don't know might understand wrong. So far I received only very few disagrees and gave even less, and I noticed that it might be difficult not to feel offended and to find words that do not sound offending.
The article is really very interesting and I totally agree with it!
Inga


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anistone  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 16:44
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有意思的文章 Nov 2, 2006

但比较理想化

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Jianjun Zhang  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:44
English to Chinese
+ ...
Sort of cultural thing. Nov 2, 2006

Shang wrote:
有的人不能接受反对意见,一旦你disagree或neutral,他/她会跟你理论半天,你不被他/她气死也要被烦死。上个月就遇到这样的事情。作为翻译,这实在是很可悲的事情。

无论你的水平多么高,都会有翻译/理解错误的时候。别人给你指出来,并不说明你不行,只是每个人从不同的角度看问题会有不同的结果罢了,人家说错了一笑了之,说对了就接受,犯不着没完没了地证明自己是对的。说到底就是死要面子。

Shang,

This is sort of cultural thing (so we have 死要面子活受罪). Many Chinese people won't feel easy when other guys give them a disagree (especially with that red color, rather shocked). Of course, this is not necessarily a kind of good virtual. Just let it ride.

I rarely, almost never, give other people a disagree. The reason is simple. If I got the right answer and posted there, it already shows I disagree or at least feel neutral regarding other answers. Then why a disagree to exaggerate the difference. And since I'm a Chinese, I know it probably will hurt other people. Then why should I do this thing?

To be frank, I don't like other people to give me a disagree either. I respect or, at least have tried my best, to respect other people's culture/subculture, so I expect other people to treat me the same. However, I don't care if other people really give me a disagree. I simply shrug it off.

There are people who give other people a disagree out of dislike or even hatred. This is ludicrous and these people don't know how to enjoy the happiness of giving other people respect and help.

As always, a disagree itself is no big deal. But personal comments, verbal attacks, sarcastic feedback, etc. should not be there. Treating peers equally and respectfully is something admirable. Otherwise, KudoZ rules will apply.

Best,
Jianjun

[Edited at 2006-11-02 10:32]


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Bin Zhao
China
Local time: 16:44
English to Chinese
我来说说 Nov 2, 2006

我上Kudoz答题的时间不长,总共给过一次“disagree”,但那是明知道对方的解释是错的,而自己又实在想不出更好的答案的情况下。我觉得不论disagree还是给出自己的答案,只要对大家这个词汇在这个语境下的理解更有帮助,你把你的意见表达出来,让意思更明朗,提问者获得答案,浏览者获得知识,就都是好的。反过来,中国人比较好面子,别人不同意自己的意见,总以为是对自己的人身攻击,其实不管对方本意如何,如果是真的错了,何不谦虚的承认——何况人人都有范错误的时候,要想永远都是对的,那是绝无可能的事;如果感觉别人并不能说服你,那就继续讨论,对事不对人,完全可以豁达一些拉。。。当然如果自己有更贴近本意的解释,另给出一个答案便是了。说到底,还是个心态问题。

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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:44
Chinese to English
+ ...
看具体情况 Nov 2, 2006

Jianjun Zhang wrote:

Shang wrote:
有的人不能接受反对意见,一旦你disagree或neutral,他/她会跟你理论半天,你不被他/她气死也要被烦死。上个月就遇到这样的事情。作为翻译,这实在是很可悲的事情。

无论你的水平多么高,都会有翻译/理解错误的时候。别人给你指出来,并不说明你不行,只是每个人从不同的角度看问题会有不同的结果罢了,人家说错了一笑了之,说对了就接受,犯不着没完没了地证明自己是对的。说到底就是死要面子。

Shang,

This is sort of cultural thing (so we have 死要面子活受罪). Many Chinese people won't feel easy when other guys give them a disagree (especially with that red color, rather shocked). Of course, this is not necessarily a kind of good virtual. Just let it ride.

I rarely, almost never, give other people a disagree. The reason is simple. If I got the right answer and posted there, it already shows I disagree or at least feel neutral regarding other answers. Then why a disagree to exaggerate the difference. And since I'm a Chinese, I know it probably will hurt other people. Then why should I do this thing?

To be frank, I don't like other people to give me a disagree either. I respect or, at least have tried my best, to respect other people's culture/subculture, so I expect other people to treat me the same. However, I don't care if other people really give me a disagree. I simply shrug it off.

There are people who give other people a disagree out of dislike or even hatred. This is ludicrous and these people don't know how to enjoy the happiness of giving other people respect and help.

As always, a disagree itself is no big deal. But personal comments, verbal attacks, sarcastic feedback, etc. should not be there. Treating peers equally and respectfully is something admirable. Otherwise, KudoZ rules will apply.

Best,



I agree with all the postings ahead of me.

IMO, it's really not a big deal if the disagee/neutral opinion is for the right reasons and done with the right intentions. I myself have tried them all and received them all.

But for your own sanity, it's probably better just to speak your own piece, and let others have their say.

I can appreciate what Denyce is trying to advocate with "agree to disagree". It's a very appropriate slogan and more importantly it's the right thing to do. However, we don't live in an ideal world, even when it comes to this very progressive ProZ.com community.

I think it's definitely a practice worth advocating. But people still have to do what they feel most comfortable with.


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Wenjer Leuschel  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 16:44
English to Chinese
+ ...
Why not agree to differ? Nov 2, 2006

Jianjun Zhang wrote:

Sort of cultural thing. 


其實 agree, disagree 不過是個人意見,不見得有其它意義,neutral 也不見得比 disagree 不具有殺傷力,或比 agree 來得 negative。

在其它語言對裡,同樣有不少關於 disagree 的討論,尤其拉美人和西班牙人之間對同樣的詞語往往有不同的理解,提問者如果沒有說明「拉美西班牙文不要」,他們可是很有得吵的。

中文世界也同樣有某些有趣的情況可能發生,比方這邊說「質量」,那邊說「品質」,後者說前者不對得怪,因為「質量」是物理方面的詞,「品質」則是明確所指。又比方這邊說「支持」,那邊說「支援」,後者說前者不對得怪,因為你可以熱烈支持,可以大力支持,就是不能熱烈支援,頂多只能給予大力支援。

不過,這些需要 disagree 嗎?Why not agree to differ? 人各有所長,不同的不一定是對錯的問題,只是不同而已。


[Edited at 2006-11-02 15:13]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:44
Chinese to English
+ ...
新官上任 Nov 2, 2006

wherestip wrote:

I can appreciate what Denyce is trying to advocate with "agree to disagree".



Weiwei,

I neglected to say: great content, great delivery, great artwork and layout. It's a very well written, informative piece.


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Zhoudan  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:44
Member (2007)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Agree Nov 2, 2006

. Weiwei should receive kudos on this great effort.

wherestip wrote:

Weiwei,

I neglected to say: great content, great delivery, great artwork and layout. It's a very well written, informative piece.



[Edited at 2006-11-02 15:10]


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Denyce Seow  Identity Verified
Singapore
Local time: 16:44
Member (2004)
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for sharing, Edward Nov 2, 2006

Shang wrote:

有的人不能接受反对意见,一旦你disagree或neutral,他/她会跟你理论半天,你不被他/她气死也要被烦死。上个月就遇到这样的事情。作为翻译,这实在是很可悲的事情。


I can understand very well what you mean. Different people react differently to such comments. Unfortunately, we cannot change what they think or how they behave. We can only try to stay as objective and professional as possible. If we have tried our best to explain, and the other party is still not convinced, there is really no point in bringing it further. Just leave it to the asker and the others to judge. Am I right?

Shang wrote:

无论你的水平多么高,都会有翻译/理解错误的时候。别人给你指出来,并不说明你不行,只是每个人从不同的角度看问题会有不同的结果罢了,人家说错了一笑了之,说对了就接受,犯不着没完没了地证明自己是对的。说到底就是死要面子。


Agree! People make mistakes. No one is a saint. If someone points out your mistake, take it like a real man/woman. Show others that you are gracious and professional. Don't spoil your image by aruging over petty details.

Denyce




[Edited at 2006-11-02 15:18]


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pkchan  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:44
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
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先來一個民調好不好! Nov 2, 2006

讓我先來一個DISAGREE。這篇題為"Let's Agree to Disagree"的文章一開始就作了個『假定』:...in our Chinese KudoZ section we hardly see "disagree" or "nutral" comments......it is just not in our culture to disagree with someone openly ....." 這說法比較武斷,兼"stereotyping"那些使用KudoZ的人及會員。究竟"our culture"何指,請說明這是誰的文化, 是作者的文化,還是這裡『會員』的文化。至於是否運用DISAGREE的問題,原因在那裡,先來一個民調好不好,一口咬定是『文化』問題,要人家認同這種『文化』,這本身已引起不安了,餘下來的更不用再談了。

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Denyce Seow  Identity Verified
Singapore
Local time: 16:44
Member (2004)
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, Stephen Nov 2, 2006

wherestip wrote:

But for your own sanity, it's probably better just to speak your own piece, and let others have their say.


Agree! I think it is enough once you have stated your reasons or explanations. The other party, of course, has a right to defend his/her answer or explanation. If you allow the whole thing to turn into a debate, it does not benefit anyone. You will end up spoiling your own day. For what?

wherestip wrote:
However, we don't live in an ideal world, even when it comes to this very progressive ProZ.com community.


I recognise this too. My purpose is not to make EVERYONE start giving "disagree" and "neutral" comments from now on. I just want to encourage and explore the possibility of having this practice in our community. I understand that something that works perfectly well for another community does not necessarily work well for ours, but we can at least give it a shot.

wherestip wrote:
I think it's definitely a practice worth advocating. But people still have to do what they feel most comfortable with.


Definitely! Some people are just not comfortable with giving "disagree" or "neutral" comments. They don't have to. However, they might get such comments one day. This article also shares with us how to receive criticisms. I could only come up with three points. If anyone of you here have more suggestions, please feel free to share with us.

Denyce

[Edited at 2006-11-02 16:06]


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Denyce Seow  Identity Verified
Singapore
Local time: 16:44
Member (2004)
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
To pkchan Nov 2, 2006

I wrote this article based on my personal experience with Kudoz. Throughout my three years here, I hardly saw any "disagree" or "neutral" comments. As to whether the reason for this can be fully attributed to culture, I cannot say I am 100% sure. It was probably inappropriate for me to pinpoint culture as the cause here. However, I do think that though there might be other factors at play, culture plays a very big part.

From the recent discussions on this topic, I got the impression that our Chinese participants avoid giving "disagree" and "neutral" comments because of "face" issue and general dislike for confrontation. Of course, we cannot stereotype and say this is the case with every Chinese person. I recognise that each of us has different thinking, beliefs and values.

The rest of the article has nothing to do with culture. The tips apply to general situations and can be used by anyone. If you have not read it yet, please do so and let me know what you think.

I have to admit it hurts to get this response. However, I must walk the talk and take this like a real woman. pkchan, I still thank you for the comment. I do see value in it.

Denyce

[Edited at 2006-11-02 16:18]


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