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Unification or standardization of SCH and TCH has been set to be the goal.
Thread poster: Kevin Yang

Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:26
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Nov 4, 2007

Hello, All

Unification or standardization of SCH and TCH has been set to be the goal in the recent conference held in Beijing, which drew the scholars from China, South Korean, Japan, and other regions. For the detailed report, please read:

http://www.worldjournal.com/wj-inst-news.php?nt_seq_id=1618694

In my opinion, SCH and TCH is a set of problems we created for ourselves and it went beyond what is considered as a simple matter in Chinese language. It is the high time to compromise by each party and standardize the Chinese writing system into one so as to make the life of Chinese users and learners easier and make the communication more effective and efficient.

对于翻译来说,这也可能是一个双刃剑,会断了一条赚钱的财路。从大局考虑,利还是大于弊。

Kevin


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Wenjer Leuschel  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 01:26
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No problem for someone like me. Nov 4, 2007

Kevin Yang wrote:

... In my opinion, SCH and TCH is a set of problems we created for ourselves and it went beyond what is considered as a simple matter in Chinese language. It is the high time to compromise by each party and standardize the Chinese writing system into one so as to make the life of Chinese users and learners easier and make the communication more effective and efficient.


I am always ready for compromises.


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David Shen  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:26
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Two Boys, Two Toys Nov 4, 2007

I have two boys.

To the parents, they complain that the brother has got a better toy. When there comes a girl, each of them claims he has got a better toy.

Now it's up to the girl to decide which is a the better boy with a better toy. They do say that the bigger the boy, the bigger the toy.


PS
Wenjer, do girls do that too?

[Edited at 2007-11-04 17:08]


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lbone  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 01:26
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我觉得是学者作秀 Nov 4, 2007

中、日、韩都经不起文字剧烈变动的巨大成本,尤其是中国这种高速发展,除了和谐,发展高于一切的国家。

要照着繁体改简体,这种方案基本不太可能被大陆民众认可。

[Edited at 2007-11-04 17:33]


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shirleyshanghai
Local time: 01:26
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最优美的是文言文,可惜不可能普及 Nov 5, 2007

历史发展到现在,谁取代谁恐怕都不现实,我觉得现在这样挺好。繁体字不会写,但也看得懂,没有关系啊。老百姓习惯怎么样用,我觉得这恐怕不是学者或政府可以轻松改变的。尊重就好啊。

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Wenjer Leuschel  Identity Verified
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Local time: 01:26
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In principle Nov 5, 2007

David Shen wrote:

I have two boys.

To the parents, they complain that the brother has got a better toy. When there comes a girl, each of them claims he has got a better toy.

Now it's up to the girl to decide which is a the better boy with a better toy. They do say that the bigger the boy, the bigger the toy.


PS
Wenjer, do girls do that too?


The lady has the choice, as you described. It is always up to the girl to decide.

I have two girls. The younger one complains that I prefer the eldest while the eldest complains that I prefer the youngest. As to the toys, they had almost the same ones when they were very young. Now, each of them have their own taste and do not complain who has the better ones. The same as with boys. They just have different tastes and the tastes change with the time. I am glad that they've assumed the right attitude.


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Wenjer Leuschel  Identity Verified
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Local time: 01:26
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文字改革 Nov 5, 2007

Shirley Hou wrote:

最优美的是文言文,可惜不可能普及

历史发展到现在,谁取代谁恐怕都不现实,我觉得现在这样挺好。繁体字不会写,但也看得懂,没有关系啊。老百姓习惯怎么样用,我觉得这恐怕不是学者或政府可以轻松改变的。尊重就好啊。


在历史上,汉族经历过多次的文字改革,基本上只是随着时代的需求改变罢了,而且也是以当时的主流文字为依归,怎么变化“语言”的本质并没有太大改变:怎么变,都还是以达到沟通为目的。

文言文其实是为了精简表达而产生的,不见得不在口语中出现。此外,白话口语同样可以优美;优美的判准在于表达的适切 (包含意象的传达) 和语言的韵律,如果两者相称,白话口语同样优美,比方顺口溜或 RAP 之类的语言现象。语言毕竟是由音乐性的,所以表达的形式也包含韵律。能够流传的文字,大体上也是由于表达适切而且韵律均衡的缘故。

简体字和繁体字的差异并不大,但是语言受到地方社会条件的影响,表达的内涵和方式都会发生差异,那种差异就不容易消弭。因此,文字的改变很容易适应,表达内涵的改变却会重大影响群体的发展走向,文字的统一并不能改变这种各地交流必定互相影响的事实。台湾人的想法如果能够让中国大陆人以他们读得懂的文字阅读,必定会影响他们的思想内涵;同样地,中国大陆的著作让台湾人读懂,也会影响他们的思想内涵。

追根究底来看,除了自然的地理和社会环境的因素之外,统治集团希望获得的利益会影响语言文字的趋同或趋异。以欧洲语言的历史发展为例,罗马帝国原先带往各地的拉丁文,在各地势力的影响下发展出今日的不同语文,但大体上还留下拉丁文的痕迹,尤其那些称为罗马语系的语言文字相似都非常高,但长期的社会条件差异使得趋同的可能性变得很小。

这种情况在汉语语系的语言里也可以发现:河洛语、客家语、广东话和其他地方语言都有理解上不相容的因素存在。即使同样使用繁体字,香港和台湾的现代汉语还是有区别的。因此,即使汉字繁简体统一了,我们的翻译工作还是不会轻松些,因为适用于台湾的汉语、适用于香港的汉语和适用于中国大陆其他地区的汉语还是会有差异,同样的文本还是需要有不同的版本,以便达到文本使用的目的。基于这个事实,我并不觉得汉字繁简体的统一就会使得翻译的事业受到重大影响。


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LoyalTrans
Local time: 01:26
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What have Korea and Japan to do here? Nov 5, 2007

Kevin Yang wrote:

Hello, All

Unification or standardization of SCH and TCH has been set to be the goal in the recent conference held in Beijing, which drew the scholars from China, South Korean, Japan, and other regions. For the detailed report, please read:

http://www.worldjournal.com/wj-inst-news.php?nt_seq_id=1618694

In my opinion, SCH and TCH is a set of problems we created for ourselves and it went beyond what is considered as a simple matter in Chinese language. It is the high time to compromise by each party and standardize the Chinese writing system into one so as to make the life of Chinese users and learners easier and make the communication more effective and efficient.

对于翻译来说,这也可能是一个双刃剑,会断了一条赚钱的财路。从大局考虑,利还是大于弊。

Kevin



Not sure why Korea and Japan are involved in this. Does Korean have Chinese characters?

I don't think this is likely to happen, at least in the short term. I don't know if Wenjer has problems reading SC, but I do find it difficult - if not possible at all - to read TC. So the problem is: who is going to compromise?


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David Shen  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:26
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《需要统一的是语音》 Nov 5, 2007

要统一文字并不难,使用简体和繁体的人们现在讨价还价一番,能达到某种程度的折衷方案后,把笔划改动一下就基本上可流行了。

难的是要统一语音,目前两岸三地的现状,语音一直以来就是个很明显的因素。要说中国的发展之快已经感到语言阻碍了发展速度的话,拖后腿的主要是语音。谁要是在三十年内能把中文的语音基本统一了,统一到各式英语或西班牙语的程度,秦始皇都会甘拜下风。 别的不说,同样的人名,大陆、香港和台湾拼出来的就是不一样。


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Wenjer Leuschel  Identity Verified
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Local time: 01:26
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语音很难统一 Nov 5, 2007

David Shen wrote:

要统一文字并不难,使用简体和繁体的人们现在讨价还价一番,能达到某种程度的折衷方案后,把笔划改动一下就基本上可流行了。

难的是要统一语音,目前两岸三地的现状,语音一直以来就是个很明显的因素。要说中国的发展之快已经感到语言阻碍了发展速度的话,拖后腿的主要是语音。谁要是在三十年内能把中文的语音基本统一了,统一到各式英语或西班牙语的程度,秦始皇都会甘拜下风。 别的不说,同样的人名,大陆、香港和台湾拼出来的就是不一样。


每个人的发音器官不尽相同,些微的差异加上时空隔阂,很容易发音越来越有距离。甚至那些拼音文字也很容易发生地方性的相异,更何况汉字无法从字形断定发音原则,更容易产生偏离的发音现象。


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David Shen  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:26
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所以啦! Nov 5, 2007

Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
语音很难统一


我见了PK兄的面也只好说英文,见了你还不知道该说什么呢?
(而在网上聊天的话,我们一来一去可以理解得很细腻!)

[Edited at 2007-11-05 08:08]


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Wenjer Leuschel  Identity Verified
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哈! Nov 5, 2007

David Shen wrote:
Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
语音很难统一


我见了PK兄的面也只好说英文,见了你还不知道该说什么呢?


你说现代汉语普通话就行。我的普通话发音还算是人人听懂得的。


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David Shen  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:26
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你准备好! Nov 5, 2007

我一见面就想听你问我:“你拿来的礼物是什么?”
然后再说:“竟然是一篮子烂南瓜?”

我们请黄河以北的同仁们做裁判。


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Wenjer Leuschel  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 01:26
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哦,你以为南方人说不准北方音? Nov 5, 2007

David Shen wrote:

我一见面就想听你问我:“你拿来的礼物是什么?”
然后再说:“竟然是一篮子烂南瓜?”

我们请黄河以北的同仁们做裁判。


那得看个人用不用心。我说台湾某些原住民语言,他们还会表示惊奇呢。腔调倒容易摹仿,问题是词汇,需要时间适应。搞不好,你的那篮子南瓜比我的烂。


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xxxwonita
China
Local time: 14:26
No compromise necessary Nov 5, 2007

Robert Cai wrote:

I don't think this is likely to happen, at least in the short term. I don't know if Wenjer has problems reading SC, but I do find it difficult - if not possible at all - to read TC. So the problem is: who is going to compromise?



现在新加坡的语言学校教的基本上都是简体中文,因为和中国大陆生意往来频繁。在欧洲,大部分学习中文的外国人学的是普通话和简体中文。归根到底,经济主导文化。

有美国人在Kudo提问时叫嚷要废除简体中文,难道他忘记了美国人其实是在糟蹋牛津英语吗?


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