Is it possible to do a translation with Deja Vu and provide client with unclean Wordfast file?
Thread poster: Olaf Reibedanz

Olaf Reibedanz  Identity Verified
Colombia
Local time: 02:06
Member (2003)
English to German
+ ...
Mar 10, 2009

Hi everybody,

A new client has asked me if I would be willing to work with Wordfast, but of course I am not keen on this. Does anybody know if it is possible to (1) create an empty TM with Wordfast, (2) pretranslate the source file with this empty Wordfast TM, and then (3) import that pretranslated file into Deja Vu, in order to create an unclean translation? (Basically, the same procedure like with unclean Trados files).

Unfortunately, the project manager was unable to tell me if steps 1 and 2 are possible because he doesn't know the programme he is using (LOL).

Thanks a lot for your help!

Olaf


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Mikhail Popov
Singapore
Local time: 15:06
Member (2015)
English to Russian
+ ...
Possible Mar 11, 2009

You can create empty TM in Wordfast, its easy. Then you can translate all text with this TM. But, unregistered copy of Worfast 5.53 will last only till 500 translation units. Usually it's enough for 10-15 pages document. If document is bigger, you will have to create the second TM or buy the license.

After translation you can open the documents with delimiters in other CAT tool. I never tried Deja Vu, but MemoQ can do this. And you can also import TM from Wordfast through TMX format.
If you will not make "clean procedure" in Wordfast, the document straight after translation will be bilingual. May be that is your objective?

I'm not sure about "pretranslation". What does it mean for you?


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Jorge Payan  Identity Verified
Colombia
Local time: 02:06
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
+ ...
With Wordfast or with TRADOS, the result is the same: yes Mar 11, 2009

I am supposing you mean Wordfast Classic, not the new WordFast Pro.

Of course you can create an empty WF TM, activate the Pandora box option for copying source to target for all unrecognized segments (all segments in this case) and then Translate the file for getting a bitext file, which can be imported into DVX using the "TRADOS Workbench" fiter.

However, as it seems to me that you don't want to touch WF at all, I can propose an alternative: Given that a Wordfast unclean file is for all effects the same as a TRADOS unclean file, I would use the TRADOS Workbench (even an old demo version suffices) to Translate the file against an empty TM, being sure that the check box in front of "Segment unknown sentences" is checked. You will end with a bitext file, which can be imported into DVX using the "TRADOS Workbench" fiter; once translated it will open nicely in Wordfast or in TRADOS.


Saludos


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:06
French to Polish
+ ...
Segmentation... TTX... Mar 11, 2009

Jorge Payan wrote:

I am supposing you mean Wordfast Classic, not the new WordFast Pro.

Of course you can create an empty WF TM, activate the Pandora box option for copying source to target for all unrecognized segments (all segments in this case) and then Translate the file for getting a bitext file, which can be imported into DVX using the "TRADOS Workbench" fiter.

The problem is the segmentation may be slightly different.
I.e. Trados has some no explicite exceptions for common abreviations in some languages while WF is honest here.

However, as it seems to me that you don't want to touch WF at all, I can propose an alternative: Given that a Wordfast unclean file is for all effects the same as a TRADOS unclean file, I would use the TRADOS Workbench (even an old demo version suffices)

If you can find it...
SDL no longer provides demo versions.

to Translate the file against an empty TM, being sure that the check box in front of "Segment unknown sentences" is checked. You will end with a bitext file, which can be imported into DVX using the "TRADOS Workbench" fiter; once translated it will open nicely in Wordfast or in TRADOS.

True.
Of course, you mst pay attention to codes in DVX, the DOC/RTF workflow is very strict.
So why I prefer TTX, it's more flexible and bulletproof.

Cheers
GG


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Jorge Payan  Identity Verified
Colombia
Local time: 02:06
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
+ ...
Still useable...I have TRADOS demos available Mar 11, 2009

Gregorz:

I gave my hint based on the following assumptions:

1. Olaf's customer is not forcing him to use any segmentation rules in particular. It seems to me that he is receiving an non-segmented file
2. Olaf has to deliver a translated bitext file

So, I comment your comments as follows:

"The problem is the segmentation may be slightly different.
I.e. Trados has some no explicite exceptions for common abreviations in some languages while WF is honest here. "

Your are right, but that won't stop TRADOS or WF of opening the translated bitext file

"If you can find it...
SDL no longer provides demo versions."

I routinarily keep the demo versions, and have TRADOS 5.5., 6.5, 7.0, 7.1 and 7.5 demos available for whoever needs them. Even with Vista, the WB is usable for the task Just write me to my private address!

"True.
Of course, you mst pay attention to codes in DVX, the DOC/RTF workflow is very strict.
So why I prefer TTX, it's more flexible and bulletproof."

I completely agree. The inconvenience here if you use the TTX workflow is that if Olaf's customer requires bitext as I suppose, he will have to convert the translated file from TTX to bitext (rtf), maybe using the TTXpress template which is not 100% error free. (I know that from some bitter experiences in the past

Saludos


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:06
French to Polish
+ ...
I didn't pay attention... Mar 12, 2009

Jorge Payan wrote:

I gave my hint based on the following assumptions:

You was right
Simply, I didn't pay enough attention to the initial subject.
With my 7500 words today, you imagine


So, I comment your comments as follows:

The problem is the segmentation may be slightly different.
I.e. Trados has some no explicite exceptions for common abreviations in some languages while WF is honest here.


Your are right, but that won't stop TRADOS or WF of opening the translated bitext file [/quote]
Of course
But sometimes translation offices insist on special segmentation rules.
In this case, if you use inadvertently WF instead of Trados (or vice versa) to create your segments, the difference may be damn important.
Some years ago, my friend had a serious problem like this.
He did his translation with standard WF segmentation rules but the Trados TM setup he received was somehow tricky.

Another typical example is the Logoport crap.
I refuse the Logoport jobs now, but I remember, some years ago, they sometimes asked explicitely to leave the segmentation "as is" without any changes.
But sometimes their segmentation had no sense at all.
I had a lot of fun when I imported this kind of crap in DVX, joined the segments and saw 'em after the export

For the other points, no comments today
I go to bed

Cordiamente
GG


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David Turner  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:06
French to English
+ ...
Segmentation rule myth Mar 13, 2009

This thing about segmentation rules is a bit of a myth.

Wordfast (and MemoQ) uses the same basic "sentence" stop characters as Trados:
Full stop
Tabulation
Colon
Exclamation and interrogation mark
Paragraph mark

The semi-colon is not a standard stop character.

The main thing that affects segmentation is an abbreviation list which is often language specific and which prevents segments being broken in the wrong place:

etc.
ref.
seq.
exp.
rev.
M.
Dr.

and so on

Cheers,

But these can be set in the same way in Wordfast and MemoQ.

More importantly, segmentation is likely to vary significantly from one translator to another. One will want to split or join every other source segment, whereas another will not.


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:06
French to Polish
+ ...
Trados hardcoded abbreviations... Mar 13, 2009

David Turner wrote:

This thing about segmentation rules is a bit of a myth.


The main thing that affects segmentation is an abbreviation list which is often language specific and which prevents segments being broken in the wrong place:

etc.
ref.
seq.
exp.
rev.
M.
Dr.

and so on[/quote]

The problem is in Wordfast (DVX, MemoQ etc.), you must declare the abbreviation list manually.
In Trados, some exception are already hardcoded for some languages.

E.g.
Create an empty TM en-fr in Wordfast/Trados.
Type XXX etc. YYY. in Word.
Open the segment in both CATs (put the cursor somewhere in XXX).
See the results.

As the Trados exclusion list is not public, you can't be at 100% sure how Trados will segment the text automatically during the pretlanslation.


But these can be set in the same way in Wordfast and MemoQ.[/quote]
In theory, yes... but see above...

More importantly, segmentation is likely to vary significantly from one translator to another. One will want to split or join every other source segment, whereas another will not

You're perfectly right but it's secondary here.
In most cases, when you import a WF/Trados text in DVX, the segmentation is done automatically.

Cheers
GG

[Edited at 2009-03-13 16:28 GMT]


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:06
French to Polish
+ ...
Modified stop chars... Mar 13, 2009

David Turner wrote:

This thing about segmentation rules is a bit of a myth.

Wordfast (and MemoQ) uses the same basic "sentence" stop characters as Trados:
quote]
Of course.
But the problem is when you receive a TM with a different stop list and you don't pay attention (e.g. when you have only WF and you ask a friend to export the Trados TM or when you use the Trados demo version to presegment...).

E.g. \n
Quite common in the localization, it was the case of my friend I mentioned above.

Etc.

Cheers
GG


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Olaf Reibedanz  Identity Verified
Colombia
Local time: 02:06
Member (2003)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks a lot! Mar 19, 2009

Dear colleagues,

Thanks a lot for your knowledgeable contributions! I pretranslated the source file with Trados (ticking the option "Segment unknown sentences") and did the translation with Deja Vu. It worked so smoothly that the client didn't even notice that I hadn't used WordFast

Best,

Olaf

[Edited at 2009-03-19 21:51 GMT]


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