How do you write these 2 phonemes in Danish?
Thread poster: Thomas Johansson

Thomas Johansson  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 08:11
Member (2005)
English to Swedish
+ ...
Jan 25, 2009

Hello,

I have a question about whether you have two particular sounds/phonemes in Danish and, if so, how you represent them in writing.

In Scanian, the southernmost dialect (or language if you like) of Sweden, we have the following two sounds - both of which are represented in various different ways in writing:

Sound 1:
Represented as e.g.:
"ch" (choklad),
"sj" (sjunga, själ, sju, sjuda),
"skj" (skjuta, skjul),
"sk" (skiva, skev, skinka, skära, skör),
"stj" (stjäla),
"j" (jalusi, jysst),
"sch" (schysst, schack)

Sound 2:
(I think the phonetic representation looks like an thin, elongated "S", but I am not sure.)
Represented as e.g.:
"k" (Kina, kyckling, kypare, köl, kind),
"tj" (tjuv, tjuta, tjugo, tjata, tjalla)

I wonder:
- whether you have these two sounds in (normal) Danish
- how they are represented orthographically/in normal writing (a few word examples would be great).

(In non-Scanian Swedish, sound 1 above doesn't exist, as far as I know, and sound 2 is used instead.)

I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

Thomas

[Edited at 2009-01-25 22:42 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-01-25 22:44 GMT]


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Ivana Friis Wilson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:11
Member (2008)
English to Danish
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Clarification needed Jan 25, 2009

Hi Thomas, I am not sure I understand your question?

Without being a speaker of Swedish or Scanian, to me the sounds you describe do not represent the same phoneme? It seems like the examples of Sound 1 you give are not the same sound and the same goes for sound 2.

Can you please clarify?


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Thomas Johansson  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 08:11
Member (2005)
English to Swedish
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same sounds Jan 25, 2009

Hi Ivana,

Well, when I (native speaker of Scanian Swedish) pronounce these words, I hear the same sounds - one sound in the examples given under Sound 1 and another one in the examples given under Sound 2. The sounds are just spelled differently, due to historical reasons.

(Non-Scanian Swedish speakers would, I think, hear Sound 2 in all examples, but I am not sure. I am not good at pronouncing things in the way they do.)

[Edited at 2009-01-25 22:46 GMT]


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Ivana Friis Wilson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:11
Member (2008)
English to Danish
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Okay Jan 25, 2009

- I think I get it now, but unfortunately I have only had a course in English phonetics, not Danish (not available at my uni at the time) so my knowledge of the phonetic representation of Danish is rather limited.

I am fairly certain that Sound 1 is not represented in Danish. I think sound 2 might have been at some point and maybe still is in some dialects (maybe in the south part of Jutland near Germany).

Can I ask why you are interested in these phonemes?


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Thomas Johansson  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 08:11
Member (2005)
English to Swedish
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clarification Jan 25, 2009

Ivana Friis Wilson wrote:

- I think I get it now, but unfortunately I have only had a course in English phonetics, not Danish (not available at my uni at the time) so my knowledge of the phonetic representation of Danish is rather limited.

I am fairly certain that Sound 1 is not represented in Danish. I think sound 2 might have been at some point and maybe still is in some dialects (maybe in the south part of Jutland near Germany).

Can I ask why you are interested in these phonemes?


Thanks for the reply, Ivana. To clarify, I am not asking for the _phonetic representation_ of these sounds, just the way they are _spelled_ when they (or the corresponding, more or less similar, sounds) occur in Danish words.

Can I ask why you are interested in these phonemes?


Sure. I am playing with constructing an orthographic proposal for Scanian. (As far as I know, no established orthography exists.) One problem is to identify a good representation for the two sounds I mentioned. There are various options available. It struck me that since Scanian has linguistic and cultural ties to Danish (besides Swedish), it might be interesting to see how the Danish do it.


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Thomas Johansson  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 08:11
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English to Swedish
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Danish words on "sj", "sch", and "sh" ? Jan 26, 2009

Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_phonology, I get the impression that the following character combinations may be the ones I am looking for: "sj", "sch", and "sh"

I wonder if anyone could please give a few words using these character combinations.

Thanks.


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Anne Kjaer Iversen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 15:11
German to Danish
+ ...
Sure Jan 26, 2009

Thomas Johansson wrote:

Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_phonology, I get the impression that the following character combinations may be the ones I am looking for: "sj", "sch", and "sh"

I wonder if anyone could please give a few words using these character combinations.

Thanks.



Hi Thomas,

"sj"

- sjæl
- sjov
- sjusk
- sjette


The character combination "sch" indicates that the word is a German loanword e.g:

- schweiz
- schenkel
- schilling
- schieber

and sometimes the original German "sch" word has been adapted to the Danish language (adaptations from German still make up around 60 % of the Danish language) e.g.

- Schæferhund (Ger: Schäfterhund)


Most of the "sh" combinations are taken directly from English.

- show
- shampoo
- sherry
- shop


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Mette Melchior  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 15:11
English to Danish
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Some examples Jan 26, 2009

Hi Thomas,

I don't know much of Danish phonetics either, but here are some examples of Danish words with the sounds/letter combinations you are after:

sj:

sjal
sjov
sjippe

sch:

There are not many Danish words with this combination, but here a few examples...
schilling
schenkel

sh:

shampoo
shaman
sheik


"Ch" in e.g. "chokolade" and "chauffør", and "j" in "jalousi" also produce the same sound.


You can see more about the meaning of the words and find more with these spellings by searching here: www.sproget.dk

And if you are interested in exploring Danish pronunciation more, you might find the reading tool from "Adgang for alle" useful. If you download this small piece of software, it can read Danish text or words on screen aloud for you - from any text on screen which you can select or copy. The tool can be found here: http://www.adgangforalle.dk/

Good luck with your project!


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Mette Melchior  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 15:11
English to Danish
+ ...
And by the way... Jan 26, 2009

"K" and "tj" produce very different sounds in Danish, as in e.g

kaffe, kold, kylling (produces a sound like the "c" in the English "cold")

and

tjans, tjavs, tjek (produces a sound similar to "ch" in the English "check")


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Thomas Johansson  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 08:11
Member (2005)
English to Swedish
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Thank you, all! Jan 26, 2009

These are great examples. I'll check up the Adgang for alle program and see how these words are pronounced.

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How do you write these 2 phonemes in Danish?

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