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Disagree Thread poster: GILLES MEUNIER
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Je pense qu\'il serait bien de retirer 4 points à des personnes qui mettent disagree par méchanceté ou par plaisir (il se reconnaîtra). Souvent la réponse est juste et cela n\'aide pas vraiment le demandeur. Cette même pesonne ne met jamais de \'agree\' ou de \'neutral\'. Donc, en lui retirant des points pour un \'disagree\' méchant, il réfléchirait à 2 fois avant de sanctionner par méchanceté.
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williamson (X)
Local time: 23:31
Dutch to English
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| Kudoz: la quadrature du cercle | May 4, 2002 |
Kudoz est un système égal à la quadrature du cercle et peut facilement être falsifié.
Un traducteur/une traductrice pose une question. Un autre traducteur/traductrice (qui n’est pas toujours spécialisé dans le sujet) répond et c’est le traducteur/la traductrice qui ne savait pas le terme original qui juge si ce terme est correcte ou acceptable ou pas et qui accorde les points avec les \"peers\" qui peuvent donner leur opinion.
Maintenant il est très facile de ga... See more Kudoz est un système égal à la quadrature du cercle et peut facilement être falsifié.
Un traducteur/une traductrice pose une question. Un autre traducteur/traductrice (qui n’est pas toujours spécialisé dans le sujet) répond et c’est le traducteur/la traductrice qui ne savait pas le terme original qui juge si ce terme est correcte ou acceptable ou pas et qui accorde les points avec les \"peers\" qui peuvent donner leur opinion.
Maintenant il est très facile de gagner des points. Prend un glossaire, introduisez une vingtaine de questions par jour et accordez toujours les points au même traducteur.
Maintenant, le moment est venu pour un changement des rôles. Ce traducteur prend un glossaire, introduit une vingtaine de termes par jours et vous accordez toujours les points Kudoz au même traducteur avec les mêmes collègues qui sont d’accord et pas d’accord.
Voilà la manière d\'augmenter vos points. Il est d\'ailleurs très facile de créer deux profiles (à partir des différents adresses IP) et d\'être votre propre juge.
Kudoz is a bonus system which equals the quadrate of the square and can easily be falsified: A translator asks a question. Another translator (who is not always specialised in the subject matter answers) and it is the translator who did not know the original term who can judge to whom (s)he awards the points of the term (s)he initially did not know. Once terms have been proposed peers can agree or can disagree.
Now if you team up with a peer or two who always agree with the same people and you, as an asker team up with the person who answers the question, then his/her marks go up.
Take a glossary, introduce twenty terms a day and award the marks always to the same person. In turn, that person takes a glossary, introduces twenty terms a day and (s)he awards the marks to you. Result: both your Kudoz points go up. If you than team up with the same members who agree and disagree, you have the perfect system to rise in the rankings. Moreover, it rather easy to create two profiles (with different IP-addresses) and to be your own judge.
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| I agree with you on the "mechant" disagrees!! | May 4, 2002 |
Remember, the point is to help the asker, not to show how clever you are by criticizing suggestions in a \"mean\" way. KudoZ are supposed to be fun, and mean comments ruin the friendly ambiance.
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Mats Wiman 
Sweden
Local time: 23:31
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
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In memoriam | Disagreement to 'disagree' | May 4, 2002 |
The contention that KudoZ thrives on forgery or conspiracy I find utterly fallacious.
After 18 months of vivid participation in 10-25 language pairs I can truthfully say that (allowing for my innocense) I have not seen a single occurrence of conspiracy.
It might have existed in the early days (1999-mid 2000) because then it might have paid off, but now you\' be number xxx on most lists nad it will be of less interest.
To be added: The number of watchdogs ... See more The contention that KudoZ thrives on forgery or conspiracy I find utterly fallacious.
After 18 months of vivid participation in 10-25 language pairs I can truthfully say that (allowing for my innocense) I have not seen a single occurrence of conspiracy.
It might have existed in the early days (1999-mid 2000) because then it might have paid off, but now you\' be number xxx on most lists nad it will be of less interest.
To be added: The number of watchdogs = colleagues, who observes possible malpractices is coninually growing.
Prove me wrong! Don\'t contend!
Mats J C Wiman
Übersetzer/Translator/Traducteur/Traductor > swe
http://www.MatsWiman.com
http://www.proz.com/translator/1749
ProZ.com moderator (deu>swe)
Träsk 201
S-872 97 Skog
Schweden/Sweden/Suède/Suecia
(Hohe Küste/High Coast/Haute Côte/Costa Alta)
Tel: +46-612-54112
Tel: +46-70-5769797 (Handy/mobile)
Fax: +46-612-54182
Fax: +46-612-54181 (eMail)
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williamson (X)
Local time: 23:31
Dutch to English
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| Not a foolproof system either | May 4, 2002 |
I don\'t contend anything: I am just pointing out the weaknesses of the Kudoz system. No matter how many watchdogs there are, it is far from being faultless:
a. How comes that the one who asks, is the one who grants the marks, if (s)he did not know the term ? Otherwise, the term would not be asked by this person, would it?
How correct is the term, just because you looked it up and found it in a glossary? How do you know that this is used on a daily basis in the p... See more I don\'t contend anything: I am just pointing out the weaknesses of the Kudoz system. No matter how many watchdogs there are, it is far from being faultless:
a. How comes that the one who asks, is the one who grants the marks, if (s)he did not know the term ? Otherwise, the term would not be asked by this person, would it?
How correct is the term, just because you looked it up and found it in a glossary? How do you know that this is used on a daily basis in the particular professional environment of your client?
Aren\'t the people who grant the marks judge and juror and the same time?
b. No matter how many watchdogs there are, if I introduce 15 terms about a certain subject a day and convene with someone else to grant him/her 9/15 points and take turns a week or so later, how are you going to proof that we aren\'t cheating?
c. You xxxed people, who were so \"clever\" to use the same IP-address (and people who engaged in flame wars and came back later).
That is the only way to trace where a message comes from. But what do you do about different IP-addresses: every local school and library of every town and village nowadays has an Internet connection.
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3 in 1
Local time: 23:31
French to German
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Au poster du message initial:
... et combien de KudoZ enleveriez-vous à la personne qui ne met pas de \"Agree\" à une réponse parce que cette personne en a également une en \"compétition\"? Même si elle s\'est visiblement rendue compte que la sienne n\'était pas valable et l\'a fait disparaître?
... et combien de BrowniZ faudrait-il retirer à tous ceux qui attribuent sytématiquement des \"Agrees\" à des réponses qu\'ils n\'auraient su donner? Ou: combien de Brown... See more Au poster du message initial:
... et combien de KudoZ enleveriez-vous à la personne qui ne met pas de \"Agree\" à une réponse parce que cette personne en a également une en \"compétition\"? Même si elle s\'est visiblement rendue compte que la sienne n\'était pas valable et l\'a fait disparaître?
... et combien de BrowniZ faudrait-il retirer à tous ceux qui attribuent sytématiquement des \"Agrees\" à des réponses qu\'ils n\'auraient su donner? Ou: combien de BrowniZ un tel \"Agree\" vaut-il?
Bien souvent, les comportements de ceux qui \"s\'entraident\" relèvent plus de calculs stratégiques qu\'autre chose. Eh bien, c\'est ainsi.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-04 12:46 ] ▲ Collapse
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williamson (X)
Local time: 23:31
Dutch to English
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| Kudoz deduction | May 4, 2002 |
Disons quatre Kudoz et 10 Browniz. Mais personnellement, je ne participe pas à ce jeu. Le mois passé, j\'ai eu 165 pages très techniques à traduire et quand on a beaucoup de travail ni Kudoz, ni Browniz, ni être \"forum star\" ni d\'autres activités sont prioritaires. Terminer la traduction en bonne et due forme et à la date limite doit être la priorité numéro UN.
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Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 23:31
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
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In memoriam | Translation is more important - Yes. | May 4, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-05-04 12:37, williamson wrote:
Disons quatre Kudoz et 10 Browniz. Mais personnellement, je ne participe pas à ce jeu. Le mois passé, j\'ai eu 165 pages très techniques à traduire et quand on a beaucoup de travail ni Kudoz, ni Browniz, ni être \"forum star\" ni d\'autres activités sont prioritaires. Terminer la traduction en bonne et due forme et à la date limite doit être la priorité numéro UN.
<
... See more Quote:
On 2002-05-04 12:37, williamson wrote:
Disons quatre Kudoz et 10 Browniz. Mais personnellement, je ne participe pas à ce jeu. Le mois passé, j\'ai eu 165 pages très techniques à traduire et quand on a beaucoup de travail ni Kudoz, ni Browniz, ni être \"forum star\" ni d\'autres activités sont prioritaires. Terminer la traduction en bonne et due forme et à la date limite doit être la priorité numéro UN.
I am in total agreement and I see no conflict. KudoZ is for your spare time or when you pause.
KudoZ is - like democracy - not foolproof!
In 2001 we wre a number uf members who suggested peer grading to minimise the occurrence of mistakes.
Minimize is not equal to bring it to zero.
The asker is sometimes not qualified to pick the right answer but 4 \'agrees\' is a good indicator.
An honest, professional answerer most often supplies a reliable answer and I can say I have seen very few cases where one could say: This is wrong.
You said:
b. No matter how many watchdogs there are, if I introduce 15 terms about a certain subject a day and convene with someone else to grant him/her 9/15 points and take turns a week or so later, how are you going to proof that we aren\'t cheating?
c. You xxxed people, who were so \"clever\" to use the same IP-address (and people who engaged in flame wars and came back later).
That is the only way to trace where a message comes from. But what do you do about different IP-addresses: every local school and library of every town and village nowadays has an Internet connection
My thoughts: Who are these people? I maintain they are phantasy figures (a lot of ifs) and if they exist, they cannot cause much harm anyway.
The large number of KudoZ participators and the moderators will take care of them.
Yours
Mats Wiman ▲ Collapse
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Maya Jurt
Switzerland
Local time: 23:31
French to German
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| 100 Kudoz to Williamson | May 4, 2002 |
That\'s the way it works for some.
Mais pas pour tout le monde. Et il y a d\'autres astuces plus ou moins efficaces.
Il faut aussi voir le c^oté humoristique de la chose: Quand les points sont attribué aussi vite que la réponse est donnée (souvent une fausse réponse), quand toute les bonnes réponses sont écartées et les points donnés à la réponse qui la sort tout droit d\'un glossaire.
This is the name of the game. Il faut pas penser que rien n\'a été ... See more That\'s the way it works for some.
Mais pas pour tout le monde. Et il y a d\'autres astuces plus ou moins efficaces.
Il faut aussi voir le c^oté humoristique de la chose: Quand les points sont attribué aussi vite que la réponse est donnée (souvent une fausse réponse), quand toute les bonnes réponses sont écartées et les points donnés à la réponse qui la sort tout droit d\'un glossaire.
This is the name of the game. Il faut pas penser que rien n\'a été entrepris pour changer les choses. On a essayé maintes fois. To no avail.
Alors, si vous voulez faire un autre effort, bon courage!
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-04 13:22 ] ▲ Collapse
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| The asker knows his context. | May 4, 2002 |
One reason the asker must judge is because no one but the asker knows the full context of his translation. Only the asker knows which answer has been most helpful.He is noy asked to judge which translation is best, but which answer has helped him the most in his particular predicament.
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Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 23:31
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
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In memoriam | Very well put Fred! | May 4, 2002 |
It is so true:
\'Give points to the answer most helpful to you\' is the grading phrase I believe.
It is noticeable that many harsh critics of KudoZ and ProZ seem to believe that there is something called perfection, zero faults and absolute truth.
Your comment put the church back into the centre of the village.
Mats
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| just to put some things right... | May 4, 2002 |
I second Fred\'s opinion. The asker is not some bumbling fool who doesn\'t know his subject. The asker, in most cases, at least in cases where I am the participant (asker or answerer), is asking because:
1) s/he is uncertain of a turn of phrase and need confirmation of what s/he\'s got,
2) s/he is unfamiliar with a term and needs help from fellow specialists.
3) s/he is away from h/er dictionaries, so needs help from a next best source.
<... See more I second Fred\'s opinion. The asker is not some bumbling fool who doesn\'t know his subject. The asker, in most cases, at least in cases where I am the participant (asker or answerer), is asking because:
1) s/he is uncertain of a turn of phrase and need confirmation of what s/he\'s got,
2) s/he is unfamiliar with a term and needs help from fellow specialists.
3) s/he is away from h/er dictionaries, so needs help from a next best source.
After 3 years of participating in KudoZ (De/Ru/Es/Fr>En), I now know the specific persons who will give correct answers most of the time or at least point me to the right direction. And just because I asked a question does not mean that I am totally incapable of judging what the best answer is. I am immersed in my context, bells would ring in my head if it\'s the right fit. What\'s more, good answers often come with enough references that colleagues (your so-called point-grabbers and point rivals) would agree in unison. If a rival would dare disagree, the rival\'s answer is often just a rehashing of an existing answer with different references.
It doesn\'t take genius to see through that.
Over the last year I have not seen an instance where the asker has blatantly chosen the wrong answer (e.g., supporting a comrade, thumbing a finger at a rival). If that would happen, I would only imagine that people would shy away from answering that person\'s questions.
Mats is right, there are so many participants now that it is so easy to spot a malefactor. The instances that Williamson cites are a minority and do not matter in the long run. The overwhelming majority of people get legitimate answers and are judicious in selecting the correct answer. If a wrong answer is selected, mods often change the glossary entry.
Now, we see a lot of smart-ass comments contending that KudoZ is for amateurs who don\'t know what they\'re asking. If it is, then show me a better one or run a better one yourself.
This is another case of the ivory tower syndrome: \"all you KudoZ people are nincompoops, I don\'t use KudoZ because I rely only on my research skills\".
Shit, you\'re so smart, Sherlock!
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| Giving the points | May 4, 2002 |
a. How comes that the one who asks, is the one who grants the marks, if (s)he did not know the term ? Otherwise, the term would not be asked by this person, would it?
I also agree with Fred. Just because I have asked does not mean I do not know what the answer should be. Many times a translator asks for help because they are not 100% sure about the translation. They want confirmation. Other times it is because the grammar of a sentence is dubious and you just nee... See more a. How comes that the one who asks, is the one who grants the marks, if (s)he did not know the term ? Otherwise, the term would not be asked by this person, would it?
I also agree with Fred. Just because I have asked does not mean I do not know what the answer should be. Many times a translator asks for help because they are not 100% sure about the translation. They want confirmation. Other times it is because the grammar of a sentence is dubious and you just need a fresh look at your \'problem\'. Translation work used to be a very lonely profession. I am very happy it is no longer so!
I do not think most translators help others out with terminology queries just for the KudoZ points. They do it because they genuinely want to help and be helped in the future. A bit of I\'ll scratch your back if you\'ll scratch mine. The points are just a bonus. At least, this is my viewpoint.
We all have strengths and weaknesses and many a times we are put in a position that we accept a job for which we are not completely qualified (due to misinformation or just to help a customer out). In those situations, being able to ask for help is invaluable.
Like any service it is open to abuse but, hey, if most of the time it works well, who am I to complain? ▲ Collapse
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| disagree, tabou ? | May 5, 2002 |
le disagree est parfois fondé mais semble être devenu un avis tabou sur en-fr. pourquoi remercier un \"agree\" qui flatte et ignorer un \"disagree\" sensé instruire ?
peut-être parce que certaines personnes se servent de ce dernier à des fins de contradiction personnelle et émotionnelle.
Matt, I\'m glad to hear that \"The number of watchdogs = colleagues, who observes possible malpractices is coninually growing.\" because I also think the en-fr atm... See more le disagree est parfois fondé mais semble être devenu un avis tabou sur en-fr. pourquoi remercier un \"agree\" qui flatte et ignorer un \"disagree\" sensé instruire ?
peut-être parce que certaines personnes se servent de ce dernier à des fins de contradiction personnelle et émotionnelle.
Matt, I\'m glad to hear that \"The number of watchdogs = colleagues, who observes possible malpractices is coninually growing.\" because I also think the en-fr atmosphere is unhealthy right now. ▲ Collapse
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| agree, neutral et disagree | May 5, 2002 |
D\'accord avec Gilles et Fabienne.
Autant qu\'un agree, le disagree est fait pour guider et aider la personne qui a posé la question. Disagree montre et \"doit expliquer aussi à la personne qui a reçu le disagree que sa réponse n\'est peut-être pas la bonne. Cela ne doit pas être pris comme une sanction ou une mauvaise note, ni être l\'occasion pour le donneur du desagree de prendre des airs supérieurs ou sarcastiques, de se moquer méchamment ou de régler des compt... See more D\'accord avec Gilles et Fabienne.
Autant qu\'un agree, le disagree est fait pour guider et aider la personne qui a posé la question. Disagree montre et \"doit expliquer aussi à la personne qui a reçu le disagree que sa réponse n\'est peut-être pas la bonne. Cela ne doit pas être pris comme une sanction ou une mauvaise note, ni être l\'occasion pour le donneur du desagree de prendre des airs supérieurs ou sarcastiques, de se moquer méchamment ou de régler des comptes personnels par quelques paroles desagree-ables. Je pense que faire des remarques désobligeantes avec un mauvais esprit sur la réponse de quelqu\'un a un effet très inhibiteur et dissuasif - comme cela a été dit - cela doit être dénoncé et signalé au modérateur. J\'ai toujours réagi directement à un commentaire dont le ton me paraissait inutilement désagréable exprimait un jugement sur la personne.
Un desagree avec une explication objective est tout à fait souhaitable.
Il en va de même pour le neutral ou autant de rien mettre. Contrairement à ce qui m\'a été reproché un jour, je pense que l\'on peut mettre un agree à une réponse et en proposer une autre différente. Il n\'y a rien de pervers, là. Cela offre une autre option au demandeur et comme cela est répété par plusieurs d\'entre vous ici (je l\'ai dit aussi dans un autre message en réponse à Alain), après tout c\'est le poseur de la question qui a les cartes en main,qui a tout le contxte, qui a passé déja du temps sur tout le reste du texte qui seul a tout les éléments pour choisir la réponse qui lui paraît la plus appropriée.
Jean-Luc
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